Is it just because Seth Rogen is in it? If he wasn’t in it would we still be talking about it?
KS: I think if he wasn’t in it we’d still be getting a bit of that, but not nearly as much as we have with Seth being in it, but Seth is kind of a lightning rod in as much as when you see him people think of Judd Apatow. Then, all of a sudden, people start thinking of the similarities between the Apatow flicks and the flicks we have done in the past as well.
Do you think of your films as outrageous or raunchy?
KS: For me personally, no, but that’s because in the world I live in, my very small circle, it doesn’t occur to me as outrageous or raunchy because that’s my sense of humor and that’s my friends’ sense of humor. We’re very candid and frank when we talk about anything, even sex. We talk a lot about sex just because it is so interesting and I guess at a certain point you’re supposed to put away all discussion of sex otherwise they label you as infantile, but to me sex and poop, those are the two things we have in common. It’s a fascinating subject, especially the older you get. Talking about shitting is far more interesting now than it was ten years ago because now shitting isn’t as easy as it used to be, the older I get, and I want to talk to my friends who are my age who are like, “Yeah, shitting ain’t what it used to be.”
So you don’t see it as raunchy and for some reason everyone labeling it raunchy is interviewing you and using language such as cock, pussy, labia, shit, etc. And they like the film and seem to understand where it’s coming from. I see it more as realistic, the way people talk in your film is how a lot of people talk.
KS: I remember having a discussion with Seth at one point about Judd and Judd’s stuff and I thought it was kind of telling, because I didn’t meet Judd for a few months after this and I have since met him and he’s a wonderful guy.
You guys at Comic Con were fantastic.
KS: Yeah, he was fun to sit next to in that, it was nice to be up there with somebody funny. So Seth told me at one point because I asked, “So, is Judd just filthy as well?” He goes, “No, Judd’s the exact opposite. Judd’s not filthy. I remember when we were working on ‘Undeclared’ I wanted to do a storyline about a dude who stays in his dorm room with his girlfriend all day and have sex and Judd was like that wouldn’t happen…” Seth said he was like, “Are you crazy? Of course it would.”
I don’t think Judd dwells in as much as the prurient as I do on a regular basis. I think he’s got what I would call “grown-up friends” and shit like that and they talk about more than just the dirty basics. To me, I don’t know, the stuff doesn’t occur to me as raunchy. It just feels like, if you are going to make a movie with the word “porno” in the title sex is going to come up once or twice. And if you’re going to make a movie with “porno” in the title you’re going to shoot porn and there’s going to be some nudity and whatnot. It certainly doesn’t feel like we’re trying to shoehorn it in just to be outrageous. If you’re going to make a movie about the Holocaust, sooner or later you’re going to reference a Nazi. If you’re going to make a movie about porn, sooner or later somebody’s dick is going to come out.
Which leads me to the title. You make a movie with the word “porn” in the title and I have heard you say that automatically means the MPAA is going to come down on you.
KS: Closer scrutiny. Totally.
I would think a movie with the word “porn” in the title doesn’t even need a rating.
KS: Thank you, that was my point and that was the point I made when I got up to make the appeal defense at the appeals screening. Which was, this title governs the movie, I’m not saying don’t rate the movie, but when you have the word “porno” in the title you’re going to keep out anybody who’s not remotely inclined to see this movie. No blue hair is going to be sitting in the audience, “I had no idea it was going to be about this,” and storm out angrily. It’s got “Porno” right there, front and center, we don’t bury the lead. So anybody that’s like that shit ain’t their bag, they ain’t gonna go and it’s going to play to the people who are cooler with that, have a sense of humor and that term doesn’t bother them. Ultimately that’s what it comes down to, a word.
Admittedly, it is kind of weird to see a trailer for this film on television. Just because the word “Porno” is in there it feels like someone got away with something. (Be sure to watch the anti-version at the end of this interview)
KS: It is kind of fun to hear that voice over guy go, “Zack and Miri Make a Porno.”
With the colorful background…
KS: Yeah, but you’ve seen the movie now, it’s like, I guess from that title people have it set in their mind what the movie is and that movie is definitely in there. We don’t disappoint, they do make a fucking porno, but at the same time that’s not the only thing the movie is preoccupied with. Porno is the background noise of the whole movie, whereas it’s more about relationships than anything else and about their relationship particularly.
So like some people want to see the forest for the trees and that’s that, and some people just like to go into the forest and enjoy everything instead of just the trees.
You have mentioned in other interviews how if the MPAA had really looked closely they could have certainly seen some things like labia shots and bits of ass hole, but they really would have had to look. If they had gotten to that point wouldn’t you have to start thinking they just didn’t want people to see your movie?
KS: No, going into it I assumed the MPAA would kick back that one shot of the stripper where she’s dancing from behind, you definitely see labia. They don’t want to see erect penises and they don’t want to see labia in movies. So anytime you see a chick in a movie who is naked she’s got one of those big ass ’70s bushes and that’s why, with the chick in the audition sequence in the movie, where Delany is sitting there and she just finally rips off her dress, we had to find a chick with a full bush for that purpose because we didn’t want to get tagged with having labia in the movie.
It was so crazy trying to find a woman in the 21st Century, in 2008, who doesn’t have some sort of wax job going on. Luckily the chick, Lena, who played that role is like, “I just broke up with my boyfriend two weeks ago so I don’t care.” So we were able to rock it, but it was tough.
We had casting agents looking for strippers or anyone who was remotely inclined to take their clothes off in a movie in Pittsburgh and all of them had landing strips or Brazilians and then Lena who was a member of the board, at the website, she stepped up and was like, “I’ll totally do this and I have a huge bush right now.” So it worked out.
It just felt like when it comes to stuff like that, I thought any problem we would have with the MPAA was going to be with that stripper shot, which we had an alt-take for where she was wearing a g-string. So we figured if they flag it we’ll just swap out the shots.
Then they focused on two areas, the prolonged thrusting really boggled my mind because it was obviously fake. All that thrusting, you don’t see any sort of indication of genitalia, you definitely don’t see insertion because it ain’t going up. The “shit shot” I gave them a little more lee-way on because I felt I understood why someone would flag this, but still it’s less than a second long, it’s 14 frames. My argument there was that it was 14 frames, it’s barely a shot. If we had done this before the first test screening I would have been like, “Ah, we don’t need it,” but after the test screening I’m like, “We can’t lose that shot, it’s funny.”
KS: Mmm, hmmm.
…but no Brian O’Halloran. Did you ever talk to him about The Happening?
KS: No, but I just saw it. I just saw The Happening four or five weeks ago in a hotel and I’m watching the movie and somewhere in my distant memory I remember somebody on the board saying, “Hey I think Brian O’Halloran’s in The Happening,” but I didn’t pay much attention. So I’m watching the movie and all of a sudden there’s this dude in the rearview and I’m like, “That’s fucking O’Halloran.” So I wait for the shot where you can see him, but that’s it. It’s the mirror shot. I have still yet to talk to him about it.
You’ve been rather candid in talking about behind-the-scenes stuff, such as your Superman story. After hearing of your dealings with the MPAA it had me thinking about DiCaprio in The Aviator when he’s measuring cleavage. You see that and you almost don’t think it happens, or it happened back then but can’t now —
KS: It’s true though, it happens.
How easy was it to make your case in that kind of a way? To say, “My movie is fine based on these reasons.”
KS: It was kinda easy man. When I went in front of the Appeals Committee at that screening for the thrusting I cited Taking Lives, which was Angelina Jolie and Ethan Hawke in the third act of that picture having sex on top of a dresser in a little country house and same thing, a lot of thrusting, clearly imitating the sex act, I think one of her boobs, maybe both of her boobs, came out. So my point was like, this depiction of sex is obviously erotically charged, it’s meant to titillate. You are meant to assume these people are not just having sex, but enjoying it and lusting after one another. Then you have our take on it, which is a caricature of sex, it’s a cartoonish version of sex. Nobody’s getting titillated by this because it looks so damn silly and we’re obviously playing it for comedic effect. How come the serious take gets the R and the very comedic, non-serious take gets the NC-17?
Do they respond to you as you make your statement?
KS: They can ask you questions, but they don’t. Generally what you do is, screen the flick, you get up and do max 15 minutes on why you feel the movie should be R instead of NC-17. Then Joan Graves gets up, the head of the MPAA, and she does 15 minutes on why the MPAA feels it’s an NC-17. Then you get 10 minutes to rebut and she gets 10 minutes. Then you leave the room and they make the decision and you have to win by a 2/3 majority. With all those rules in place it’s amazing anyone gets it flipped over, but I was just grateful they actually include it. If I was the MPAA I would be like, “Fuck it, take our rating or that’s it. We’re not going to give you a second bite at the apple.” But these dudes do, they afford you the opportunity to be and say maybe we’re wrong, we’ll take it to an impartial audience.
Yeah, and you said they told you there are like only 10 appeals a year?
KS: Joan, I said to Joan, “So do you have another one of these?” We were out in the hallway talking while we were waiting for the word, and very friendly with her, it’s not like we have some kind of adversarial relationship, she believes what she believes and I believe what I believe. So we’re sitting there bullshitting and what not and she said, “Nobody’s saying the movie’s not funny or sweet, it’s both of those things, we’re just saying it’s grown up as well and not for kids.” So we’re sitting there bullshitting and I said, “So do you have another one of these?” and she said, “Kevin, we do maybe, maybe, ten of these a year.”
I was like, “Really? More people don’t do this?” She said, “No, this is very rare. You’ve done three of them over the course of your career.” One was Clerks, an NC-17 for the language — that would never happen now — and Jersey Girl, they gave us an R initially and I had to argue that down to a PG-13.
Jersey Girl, you get a lot of flak for that one.
KS: Yeah, people don’t like that movie.
You even give yourself a hard time for that one.
KS: I do, I beat myself up for that one.
You do, do you not like it?
KS: I like that movie a lot.
KS: Yeah, I know. Well, no he was in one of the Scary Movies playing the Architect.
Yeah, but Jersey Girl came out after Scary Movie 3 making yours the last.
KS: Scary Movie 3 came out before ours? Because he shot it after we shot ours.
Because I was going to tell you at least Scary Movie 3 wasn’t the last time he was in film.
KS: Yeah, but some people argue with me going, “Dude, Jersey Girl wasn’t the way to go out for George Carlin.” But I thought he gave a lovely performance. I can go to my grave secure in the knowledge that George was so appreciative to be able to do that role because George always wanted to act. He loved being a stand up guy, but George got into the business initially to act and treated acting very seriously. He was a method dude, he wasn’t a guy that would just show up and do the lines.
I remember he came to me at one point and was like, “I want you to know that in the script I am always giving Greenie (Stephen Root) shit and it’s never explained in the movie, but I wrote a back-story for why it is I give him shit and I remember it, but I am just throwing it away. It’s just lurking in the back of my mind so that those moments will be more authentic.”
I remember turning to Affleck and going, “How come you never say shit like that? This dude gave it some fucking thought.”
He treated the craft very seriously and I know, because he told me many times, he loved doing that movie. He loved being able to inhabit somebody else’s skin and not being George Carlin. So, I feel good about that and if that’s the only good thing that came out of Jersey Girl then that’s cool by me.
Wouldn’t you say one of the reasons it’s been judged so hard is due to your other films. Even if you do make this R-rated horror film that is still the kind of film that will appeal to your large fan base whereas Jersey Girl sort of avoids that demo. Then again, no matter how you look at it Jersey Girl has a great commentary track especially with Mewes added into it.
KS: Yeah, him on the commentary track is great. I always thought it was weird, for a PG-13 that movie has the raunchiest commentary track, but that one was just nice and candid and then we get into Mewes and Mewes had nothing to do with the movie, but it’s really interesting.
But most of the people that teed off on the movie I would not qualify as fans by any stretch of the imagination, not even former fans. Most of the vile and vitriol was from people that were like, “This is just proof that Kevin Smith always sucked.” So it’s not like I lost those cats, those cats were just waiting for something to hang it all on, and boy, Jersey Girl couldn’t have been a bigger fucking target on my back.
I noticed on your blog you linked to a lot of early reviews for Zack and Miri and I saw one of the funniest comments over at Hollywood Elsewhere. It went like this:
“The premise of the whole movie sucks. You can’t make any money making one porno. Porno is a volume business. You need to make a lot of it to make any money.”
Wouldn’t you say this is someone that is never going to enjoy any movie?
KS: [laughing] It’s so strange because you know what dude, in Star Wars when they blow up the Death Star, you would never hear that because in space there is no sound. Who gives a shit? So what? You go into a movie and there’s a contract between the filmmakers and the audience that says you’re going to suspend the window of disbelief for a couple of hours and I am going to fill it with as much shit as possible to make you forget for two hours and bring you into this world.
The guy who’s criticizing the movie based on how unrealistic it is? I’m like, I gotta see this guy’s review of Lord of the fucking Rings man. Because I got news for you, there’s no Gollum in real life, there are no fucking hobbits. See the movie, that makes sense, I do actually answer that question in the movie.
That’s actually something that brings me back to outrageous versus realistic and one of the reasons I find realism in your films. Your films may not seem realistic, but sure, it’s not realistic for a two hour time span, but people do talk like that and you have just condensed all the moments worth showing into those two hours.
KS: Totally.
So where is the disconnect to call it raunch? Is it just because there is nothing else to compare it to?
KS: I guess that’s just the shorthand. It’s the racy subject matter. They spend a couple of moments talking about the fleshlight. That doesn’t move the plot forward any — well it does a little because he buys one and it fucks them up financially — but for a conversation that’s preoccupied with a fleshlight most people can write that off as raunch because they don’t know what else to call it. Me, it’s just conversation about something stupid, which most conversations are anyway.
But it is also something that would be talked about in those situations.
KS: Absolutely.
That’s what is so bothersome. People come down on things even though they know they exist but they are uncomfortable talking about them —
KS: Or, I assume, maybe those people are people that don’t talk about those things at all.
Well, many of the critics calling it raunch are able to talk about it with you in the several interviews I read with you for this movie already. Shit, cock, pussy… If they are able to say it to you in an interview…
KS: Sometimes no. Sometimes, in the room it is much easier to be one person than it is to be the person that actually has to write the review of the movie later on or something like that.
You have gained so much attention in the online world…
KS: [laughing] I thought you were going to say, “You have gained so much weight.” I was going to be like, “I know dude, I gotta go on a fucking diet I have gained too much weight.”
I actually did make a comment about that after your Comic Con appearance in a piece I wrote just saying, “Dude needs to lose weight he is looking unhealthy.” Some guy wrote some nasty email to me telling me how much of an ass I was and how that had nothing to do with anything. All I was saying is you needed to lose some weight because we don’t want to lose you early.
KS: Yeah, it was a bad year for me in terms of every other flick. I finally figured it out man. I was like, “How did I put on this much weight?” I mean, I know I am sedentary and I am prone to put on weight and I have always been very fat, but this year I wasn’t in the movie so I didn’t even feel the need to govern myself so I was like, “Well I’m gonna eat.” All that smoking I used to do in other movies that I did in place of eating, got replaced with actual eating. Since I am not going to be on camera I was like, “What do I give a shit?” I forgot that one day I would have to go out and support the movie still.
But in terms of the gain I was talking about, you have gained a following now that you have seen early screenings of Star Trek and Watchmen and people are aching for your opinion. Does that feel new to you?
KS: I get it because at the end of the day you remove what I do for a living and I am of the same mindset of most of the people on the Internet who are into movies and shit. Film geeks. Movie geeks. Comic book geeks. So, I’ve got a job in it kind of, but not in those kinds of movies so it affords me access to see something a little bit early so some people want to know what I think because they know that my take on it is going to be very similar to their take on it based on stuff like I might have said in the past and movies I have liked in the past.
So I can kind of get it because Harry Knowles sees a movie early and I want to read Harry’s review. Harry Knowles likes stuff that I like and dislikes stuff that I dislike. And at that point, it doesn’t matter who’s talking about it, it’s like, “Somebody saw it early? Let me know. Tell me, tell me how it was.”
So the first person that starts talking about it gains a bunch of interest. Like I remember when I saw The Dark Knight it wasn’t even all that early, it was at a press —
Yeah, I saw it at that screening.
KS: — yeah, it was at a press screening at the Bridge in Los Angeles. After the movie, like when I wrote about it very briefly on the blog, and was like, “It’s the Godfather II of comic book movies,” I took so much fucking shit for that and that all of that shit turned around and people were like, “You know what, he’s right. It is the Godfather II of comic book movies.”
So, now I just gotta hope people love Watchmen as much as I did and love Star Trek as much as I did or they’re just gonna be like, “Oh, this dude don’t know shit.”
I’m looking forward to both of them.
KS: Oh, they’re good man. They’re really good man.
How finished were they when you saw them?
KS: Watchmen only had about 12% of its effects shots done. So a lot of time you were watching [Billy] Crudup wearing this insane outfit that goes to show that window of disbelief works for everybody. You’re watching Crudup in the movie and in order to create the effect that they do for Dr. Manhattan he’s wearing this almost pajama suit that has LED lights, blue lights, sticking out of it. So the whole time he looks like, almost like a stage version of the Tin Man if they were doing The Wiz. Then you’ll see the finished shots peppered throughout because they used them in the trailer and you’re like, “Oh my god, that’s how they got that effect,” but they had to build on top of it.
So, it’s odd how quickly you get to seeing Crudup look like that while you’re watching what’s obviously an unfinished film and it still fucking works. Like even though you’re watching it going, “This is the movie before the effect shots are done and that’s not Dr. Manhattan, that’s a guy wearing a suit that they’re going to build Dr. Manhattan on top of,” it still fucking works like crazy based on the filmmaking and the performance Billy Crudup gives.
You sit there going, “Wow, Billy Crudup didn’t even have to be painted blue or be bald and you still would have bought him as Dr. Manhattan.” The fact they go above and beyond and do those things is just gravy at that point, but the performance is really top notch. He’s literally the voice of Jon Osterman that you’ve always had in your head whenever you’ve read that book.
They do the whole sequence on the moon where he escapes at one point and he’s doing, “It’s 1954… I’m at the carnival,” all that stuff — pitch perfect man. Snyder does almost that whole book from end-to-end perfectly where you’re almost like, “They filmed the entire book.” But the same could be said for the whole movie, it’s really fucking good man.
That’s good to hear.
KS: Yeah, I can’t wait to see it again. I’ve seen it twice now and I’m still looking forward to seeing it again.
More effects the second time?
KS: Yeah.
Now, take a peek at censorship at its finest as several markets are dropping the “Make a Porno” from the title and get more on the film right here.
