Joker('89)vs Joker('08)---Who Will Win!!

[MasterChief117]

Okay before people come in here bashing me about The Dark Knight not being out, lets all be honest with each other. What we have seen from the Joker just makes us go wow. Why not use that wow factor to something now. Let's compare the uncompareable, shall we?


Jack Nicholson's Joker vs Heath Ledger's Joker...


http://polivox.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/jack-nicholson_joker.jpg
So many great moments came from JN's version. Which was deffinently inspired by the early comic days of Batman, a lot of the character however was given a nice touch by JN who created by far the greatest Villain you will probably ever see on a movie(until Heath). By far the greatest moments come from the Giant Handcannon scene or the uncountable times we were plagued with a great quote from Jack Nicholson's edginess.


vs.



http://media.movieweb.com/galleries/4381/2780/lo/DK-05556.jpg
We've only see truly like 5 total minutes of the Joker from trailers but we can already guess, Heath is gonna nail the part. Wether it might be Heath's portrayal or the great dialogue and story Christopher Nolan has added we can already mark some of our favorite parts from Heath's character("Here is my card,","Kill the Batman"). Probably the best part of Heath's version is the modernized feel that Christopher Nolan added to the character, staying away from the bright purple suit and the overdone makeup by adding some interesting cuts and sweaty greasy look to Heath Ledger.




Now your thoughts, don't complain about TDK not being out, have fun!

[JBond]

The Dark Knight isn't out yet. :)

[MasterChief117]

The Dark Knight isn't out yet. :)

And I complain about you guys listening.:rolleyes:

[JBond]

I listened, but that's what it comes down to.

[MasterChief117]

I listened, but that's what it comes down to.

Like I said, take it from the 5 minutes or so we have seen him. Comon now, be realistic and have some fun.

[JBond]

take it from the 5 minutes or so we have seen him.

Comon now, be realistic.

Don't you see the contradiction there?

[MasterChief117]

I always do, but like I said, we can always have some fun.

[Doomsday]

Here's the thing.....

People have already convinced themselves how great Heath Ledger is going to be. Look at certain threads around here, IMDB boards, etc. There are a lot of posts saying how great he is or how much better than Jack he is going to be, so on and so forth. Again, the movie isn't out yet, but a lot of people have already decided that Heath is the best, it doesn't matter whether or not they have seen it. I don't know who I will find better, they both will probably play it different, although Jack's performance is one of my all time favs. You definitely see the crazy and homicidal side of the Joker in Nicholson. Ledger's looks different, but I can't judge. Nobody can judge, although many people already have unfortunately, another reason why I am losing any and all patience with fanboys.

Besides, I was all for Paul Bettany getting the Joker role.

[insaneMoViEgoer]

Based on appearances alone, I would go with Heath. Jack looked just like Jack with white makeup. But heath totally transformed into something else. And he just looks more badass :P

[Doomsday]

Based on appearances alone, I would go with Heath. Jack looked just like Jack with white makeup. But heath totally transformed into something else. And he just looks more badass :P

I thought......the exact opposite. ;)

[EnderDeschain]

Paul Bettany was an awesome idea, and had my vote long ago. I believe there was a thread here about it right after Begins, and Bettany literally had my vote. When I heard Ledger I thought oh crap, this is gonna suck. But what I've seen from the trailers looks good.

As far as the subject, it ain't gonna take much to top Nicholson's Joker. Jack Nicholson ten or fifteen years before he played the part, that might have worked. The Nicholson who was in Cuckoo's Nest or The Shining, that could've worked. But as it actually turned out, it sucked. He was too old, too fat, and just didn't play it right in a way I can't even explain. He was too...cautious. Not crazy enough. Not only that, stupid-ass Burton messed up the visual of him. Jack has what is maybe the most chilling authentic grin in Hollywood history, and instead of utilizing that they ruined it by using those ridiculous applications on his cheeks and making him look just frickin goofy.

In theory, Nicholson's Joker should have been awesome. In actuality, it wasn't. There could have been a lot worse, I suppose, but the Joker is one of those characters who has to be done exactly right or not done at all. The Joker isn't pudgy, the Joker doesn't deliver lines in a cutesie, almost self-deprecating way, the Joker is absolutely balls-to-the-wall insane to such a degree that it almost becomes his own form of sanity. It's really hard to say that Ledger's gonna be better based on the minute or so we've seen of him, but I will say it looks to have the potential of being better. The look, the way he talks, and especially the laugh, it all looks promising right now. But the Ghost Rider looked pretty cool (the character, I mean) before the movie was released, and look how that turned out.

[Ramplate]

Cesar Romero
http://www.batmania.com.ar/images/images_revista/joker_13.jpg
:rolleyes:All you youngsters forget the best one :clown:

[Scorpio82]

Seconded for Cesar Romero!

[Tornado]

The Dark Knight isn't out yet. :)

QFT

I'll vote after I see it, because as of right now there is no fair way to compare the two.

[MasterChief117]

Cesar Romero
http://www.batmania.com.ar/images/images_revista/joker_13.jpg
:rolleyes:All you youngsters forget the best one :clown:

Oldschool for sure.

[halo7]

I love Jack's performance, and Heath looks great. Of course I will wait until The Dark Knight comes out to vote.

[Dracula]

Would it have killed you to wait a month to start this?

[Tornado]

Would it have killed you to wait a month to start this?

He wouldn't have been first if he'd waited a month. ;)

[DangerMouse]

You might as well just compare the two movies.

Would Heath's Joker translate well to the tone of and style of Tim Burton's Batman?

How would Jack Nicholson's Joker translate to Nolan's Batman?

In both cases, both would be completely out of sorts.

Buton's Batman was very "Comic Booky" with Nolan went for more realism. So that's what you get with the different villians.

Nicholson's Joker was a "larger than life" cartoon character, while "it looks like" ledger will play a character that you'd probably see in a mental institute if you visited one today.

Its all about "taste" not "who is better."

To break it down another way, Geddy Lee and Paul McCartney are both AWESOME bass players, but which one is better?

Answer? It depends on whether or not you are a fan of Rush or The Beatles.

Same thing goes with Nicholson vs. Ledger.

[JustinW]

Agreed.

[moviebuff801]

Ask me again on July 18th, when I'll have actually seen the movie and can pass judgement

[FranklinTard]

jack. hands down.

and come on.. heath is already sweeping pretty much... you sad fanboys...

[donny]

Jack was awesome. Heath does look good, but I can't say he's beat Jack... yet.

[Knerys]

I'm going to leave this in the realm of non-comparability.

[Knerys]

Would it have killed you to wait a month to start this?
I think just might have.

[JBond]

I'm going to leave this in the realm of non-comparability.

Now there is a realm I would love to take a vacation to.

It would rain apples and oranges.

[Knerys]

Hope you have a sturdy umbrella.

[unity768]

heath will hopefully rock...prob rock

[Knerys]

In all honesty, I don't think this movie will be bad. Too much effort as been put into it for it to be bad. But I do think it could disappoint with all the hype surrounding it. That's my worry.

[MasterChief117]

Who thought this movie was gonna suck. Much like the whole American Idol title 'the x-factor' this movie carries it. It's one of those movies you know its gonna be bad to the bone.

[FranklinTard]

its that kind of mind set that leads to being let down by the enormous hype.

[JBond]

You think that? How long have you been a member here? ;)

[MasterChief117]

its that kind of mind set that leads to being let down by the enormous hype.

Very true to.

[Doomsday]

its that kind of mind set that leads to being let down by the enormous hype.

*cough* Crystal Skull *cough* *cough*

[Andrey83]

*cough* Crystal Skull *cough* *cough*

Yeah. With Lucas behind the pen my expectations was through the roof... ;)

[The Walrus]

I think Doomsday, Ender Deschain, Dracula and Dangermouse are all totally correct. I believe that as far as the power of storytelling goes, it would be unfair to make a blanket statement generalizing which performance is "better" when such a judgment call is completely subjective.

For me personally, Burton is responsible for making me adamantly anti-Batman from age six to age seventeen (which is when I saw Batman Begins). I thought that the earlier films were campy and ridiculous, and I couldn't understand why anyone liked him when all he seemed to be was another "James Bond" character. So from the get-go, I'll probably prefer anything Nolan does to Burton.

Another bias is that I like Heath Ledger much more than Jack Nicholson. Ledger took his roles very seriously, whether it was William in "A Knight's Tale" or Bob Dylan in "I'm Not There." I also liked him as a person - he seems so friendly and fatherly in his interviews. But Nicholson takes himself too seriously sometimes instead of the role - even though he has delivered great performances. Nicholson seemed elitist to me when he was angry with Nolan for not requesting him to reprise The Joker. I don't believe any one actor has rights to some kind of monopoly on a character; that destroys any creative integrity.

I also don't think true-to-the-comics should be a serious factor - I'm trying to judge it from a cinematic view instead of a literary view. No matter what, it won't be 100% accurate. End of story. So say to myself, "How is this good storytelling?" not "How is this good screen adaptation?"

So: for me, Nicholson was too much. I was not scared of him. His humor was pretentious and campy; I don't think The Joker, in his insane "sanity," constantly laughs at his own jokes. He didn't do anything particularly smart or cunning to me. A criminal mastermind prancing about to Prince doesn't unnerve me.

When I saw the first six minutes of "The Dark Knight," it immediately made a great impression. I thought, "Here is a Joker who has a plan. And he's not just clearly a bit unhinged - he's dangerous, and even a sense of humor that isn't so self-assuming." It left me impressed, and even a bit intimidated. And I only saw his face for five seconds. Additionally, Nolan himself has publicly dissuaded young kids from seeing this movie. He's gonna be scary enough, at least.

I think in the end, you should base your choice on which actor fit best in the movie and gave a performance you'll never forget. I don't mind Nicholson's, but I'd like to forget it. And I think come July 18th, Ledger will blow it out of the proverbial water.

[Necross]

jack. hands down.

and come on.. heath is already sweeping pretty much... you sad fanboys...

Its not different saying Jack is the better Joker when the movie hasn't come out than it is saying Heath is. As for the hype, pfft, thats you guys own fault. I kept forgetting that Crystal Skull came out at the end of May, I didn't run around screaming about it and flipping out, and I totally loved the movie. Even George said "Woah, guys, calm the hell down or you are just gonna disappoint yourselves." Same thing with the Dark Knight, I haven't forgotten its coming out but I rarely think about it, the only time I remember all the hype is when I visit these forums. ;)

[JBond]

I know this. It really looks like Heath Ledger was born to play this role, and it's a weird sort of irony he lived just long enough to do that.

[jonk]

I refuse to pass judgement based on what we have seen so far.

As it stands Jack played the role amazingly, and it fitted with the feel of the movie he was in. Heath SEEMS to have grasped the role in a creepy darker feeling film (more too my taste), and has the potential to be the best joker. But until i have seen the film, this is still only a maybe.

Same way i wouldn't say "I LOVE THAT SONG", after hearing a sound bite.

[MasterChief117]

I know this. It really looks like Heath Ledger was born to play this role, and it's a weird sort of irony he lived just long enough to do that.

I think your right to. Its kinda weird that he died being so good at his role.

[brutus]

Hard to base which one will win since we have yet to see Ledger in the movie, just previews. He does look promising though. I loved Nicholson's performance in the first movie too.

[MasterChief117]

I hope this is like the first movie that a superhero movie wins an oscar for like best acting, that would be intense.

[jonk]

I hope this is like the first movie that a superhero movie wins an oscar for like best acting, that would be intense.

i expect there will be some kind of tribute to him and his performance.

[iililjohnii]

Heath Ledger, Definitely.

[Carnage Escobar]

Well after seeing The Dark Knight twice already I think that without a doubt that Ledger wins hands down. Sorry Jack, but your days of being called the best Joker are now officially over. Heath delivered the way The Joker should be......dark, evil, psychotic, and totally insane.

[Doomsday]

Well after seeing The Dark Knight twice already I think that without a doubt that Ledger wins hands down. Sorry Jack, but your days of being called the best Joker are now officially over. Heath delivered the way The Joker should be......dark, evil, psychotic, and totally insane.

McAeQiLmEYU&feature=related

[Tornado]

You're kidding yourself Doomsday. ;)

Ledger's turn was better on almost every level.

[halo7]

I like that video but I am afraid it is in the "wrong" so to speak. Heath clearly wins.

[Necross]

Heath all the way. Liked Jack's portrayal, but I felt Heath's was better.

[Doomsday]

But they're such different takes on the role, which is why I voted Neither. It's like saying "who's the better mobster? Vito Corleone or Tony Montana?" They are night and day opposite.

Another point I made before is that you could have had anyone, aaanyone in that role, and people still would have said how much better he is than Nicholson, if only for the fact that it's the latest film in a popular franchise. I'm gonna get flamed for it I know, but I think it's the truth. Not to take away from Heath's amazing performance, but just sit and think about it. People would have gone nuts either way for the same reason that Dark Knight is #1 on the imdb list.

Besides, I didn't see Heath with too many scenes like these....

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[Necross]

Yeah, his were a lot better now that I look at those....haven't seen the old Batman in a while! Thanks for making me feel stronger about my opinion! :D

In all seriousness, I have to disagree that with anyone else in the role I would've felt the same. There have been characters redone again and again and I haven't liked the new one each time simply because it was the new one.

[Tornado]

But they're such different takes on the role, which is why I voted Neither. It's like saying "who's the better mobster? Vito Corleone or Tony Montana?" They are night and day opposite.

Another point I made before is that you could have had anyone, aaanyone in that role, and people still would have said how much better he is than Nicholson, if only for the fact that it's the latest film in a popular franchise. I'm gonna get flamed for it I know, but I think it's the truth. Not to take away from Heath's amazing performance, but just sit and think about it. People would have gone nuts either way for the same reason that Dark Knight is #1 on the imdb list.

Besides, I didn't see Heath with too many scenes like these....

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wotScx3Q7ZY&NR=1

Or (and hear me out here), Heath was just... better. Nicholson is just playing himself in white make-up, whereas Ledger completely lost himself in the role. There's no comparison.

[iv3rdawG]

I agree. Nicholson was great but it was just.. Nicholson being himself. You really cannot tell me with a straight face that Ledger playing The Joker didn't completely transform into this role and was better at it in pretty much every aspect. Very few times have I seen someone play a character so well that you really think you're not watching an actor play someone, but a real person. It's just amazing.

[Neverending]

I'd say all three Jokers are equal. Romero was great as the campy Joker. Nicholson was great as a non-campy yet not completely serious Joker. And Ledger was great as a sort of...revisionist Joker. The Joker anyone prefers has little to do with the actual performance. It has more to do with the writing and what interpretation you prefer.

[Joker97]

There different in certain ways jacks vesion has a more funny knida trickster charecter but heaths wow heaths is dark and scary and more of a crimanal than jacks.

[Dracula]

But they're such different takes on the role, which is why I voted Neither. It's like saying "who's the better mobster? Vito Corleone or Tony Montana?" They are night and day opposite.
Good comparison


Another point I made before is that you could have had anyone, aaanyone in that role, and people still would have said how much better he is than Nicholson, if only for the fact that it's the latest film in a popular franchise.
I'm gonna get flamed for it I know, but I think it's the truth. Not to take away from Heath's amazing performance, but just sit and think about it. People would have gone nuts either way for the same reason that Dark Knight is #1 on the imdb list.
Look, I sort of know how you feel... but that's a ridiculous thing to say. How many people were saying George Clooney or Val Kilmer were so much better than Michael Keaton "only for the fact that it's the latest film in a popular franchise." I've definitely been in the same position as you on a number of movies, I understand your frustration, but there are people who legitimately loved TDK and for the right reasons, there's no reason to belittle their opinions.

Anyway Like you were saying before, this isn't really a fair comparison. The Joker in the '89 Batman movie was probably truer to the Joker in the comic books, and Jack Nicholson was the right actor for that version of the character. If Heath Ledger had played the Joker from the '89 version he wouldn't have been as good at it as Jack, and if Nicholson had played the Joker from TDK he wouldn't have been as good at it as Heath.

[JustinW]

You can't compare the two. True, I like Heath's take on Joker much more. But you can't compare the two.

[JBond]

I still think it's just that the die-hard fans don't WANT to compare them, but that could be just me...

[Fanible]

You can't compare the two. True, I like Heath's take on Joker much more. But you can't compare the two.

They're both renditions of the same character. Yeah, I can compare them.

[Neverending]

There different in certain ways jacks vesion has a more funny knida trickster charecter but heaths wow heaths is dark and scary and more of a crimanal than jacks.

Trickster? Say that to the man he electricuted to death. ;)

[tom7859]

Then I'll be sure to see it, and get back with you

[tom7859]

a free watch movie sie *edit*

[Alien]

I never really liked Jack Nicholson as Joker in Batman, I just don't like Jack Nicholson so I can only guess that Heath Ledger will be better from the trailer. I'm going to see the new movie on Thursday (UK opening day) so I'll vote then.

[Fighting American]

I guess no one wants to say that one is better than the other?? This whole "we're all winners" mentality kills me. We don't keep score in my kid's soccer games, for cryin' out loud.

Nicholson was good. But he was fat! He didn't come off as sinister as he should have either.....It was still "campy". The gas ballons....pulling out that long gun to shoot down the Bat wing....the dopey Joker copter at the end....


Ledger was best yet.......period. This joker was complex. The non-motivation for his crime.....the constant change in stories about how he got his scars....the reasons why he won't kill Batman......the phone call.....the burning of the pile of money just because he felt like it.....not having a "plaaaan" .......how he switched the addresses around to send Batman to Dent and Gordon to Rachel..........His speech while hanging upside down.....the bizarre video taping and torture of the Batman copy cat.


This was better......no matter what movie it was in......This was "Killing Joke" Joker.

[Knerys]

Nicholson did fine with the material he was given. Heath was definitely given more to work with and I think he spent more time really searching and refining the character.

I like his end result better than Nicholson's. Yes they are very different takes, but it's still valid to compare them because they are the same character. But I don't think it should be a matter of who is better but rather a comparision of how each person approached the character.

[Knerys]

Yo Fighting American. Spoiler tags for christ sake!! :rolleyes:

[DragnFire22]

In order to vote in the poll, you should see TDK. So, if you're in here, you should know the spoilers anyways.

[Knerys]

Doesn't mean that people won't wander in here to read.

But I don't expect you to understand the concept of common courtesy.

[DragnFire22]

Common courtesy would be to understand how the board works before using it, not to march in ignorantly.

People need to stop catering to stupidity.

[Knerys]

Majority of the people in this thread (including FA) know how this board works.

It's not stupid to want to read people comments on a hot subject matter. The tools are there to make sure everyone can get their point across with out ruining it for others. Use them.

[Fighting American]

In order to vote in the poll, you should see TDK. So, if you're in here, you should know the spoilers anyways.

That was my thinking.....but, I'm cool with it.:rolleyes:

[Knerys]

If was a month down the line, fine whatever. It's only the first weekend.

[DragnFire22]

Majority of the people in this thread (including FA) know how this board works.

It's not stupid to want to read people comments on a hot subject matter. The tools are there to make sure everyone can get their point across with out ruining it for others. Use them.

I never said the people in this thread don't know how to use the boards. I said that people should learn how to use them before posting. Hence, if some new user comes into this thread and has the movie spoiled for them, it's their own damn fault.

It is STUPID to go into a thread discussing elements of a movie and assume that no spoilers will be used. If you haven't seen TDK, then you can't really vote in the poll. So, why come in here unless you want to know that Heath's role contains. And if you want to know, then you want to be spoiled.

If was a month down the line, fine whatever. It's only the first weekend.

It seems you really like to make up the rules on how the forum operates. This isn't the first time you've taken a personal preference and assumed it is forum policy.

[saveus1011]

Ledger's in more in line with comics Joker. Nicholson's is never threatening enough to be true to Mr. J.

[DragnFire22]

Having been a part of these forums for much longer, how about I tell you how the forums work; people use spoiler tags in review threads. All you're doing is redefining the boards of which has hundreds of members to fit your unique opinions on review threads.

And yet the enforcement of that view is very selective. Curious.

Hence, on opening weekend, people will spoiler out their posts. As Knerys said, if it's month down the line, it's fair game. This isn't a poll, it's a review thread with a poll attached.

That's weird, because it says "POLL" right up there. :rolleyes:

[DragnFire22]

LOL, way to delete your post, JBond.

[JBond]

Ah, sorry about that. I hadn't realized you saw the post, that was pretty quick. Honestly, I deleted it when I realized we were not in the Dark Knight review thread like I thought we were, there's too many Batman threads. I had to rethink how I said things.

However, my opinion still stands on spoilers, and its enforced as much as 3 mods can handle. And I'm not sure what you meant by "it says poll up there". All I meant was, threads are THREADS first, than polls. Just because a thread is asking about opinions of a movie, doesn't mean those who haven't watched it should be expected to stay out. Those who haven't watched it shoudl be able to use these threads to their advantge to help them on selection of movies. Not to mention that fact taht these boards are global, and some people have to wait weeks before seeing a movie or TV show. SHoudl these people stay out of threads for weeks? Should they bugger off?

[Knerys]

I never said the people in this thread don't know how to use the boards. I said that people should learn how to use them before posting. Hence, if some new user comes into this thread and has the movie spoiled for them, it's their own damn fault.

It is STUPID to go into a thread discussing elements of a movie and assume that no spoilers will be used. If you haven't seen TDK, then you can't really vote in the poll. So, why come in here unless you want to know that Heath's role contains. And if you want to know, then you want to be spoiled. Not only new users are going to come in here you know. And yeah, there's a risk. I know that, everyone knows that. But then I guess it's my personal perference to be nice and not give away anything if I don't have to.



It seems you really like to make up the rules on how the forum operates. This isn't the first time you've taken a personal preference and assumed it is forum policy.


Funny because you like to jump in and "correct" everyone when they don't play to your line of rules either. I never said anything about this being thread policy so stop putting words in my mouth. And I'm not making anything up. Call it unwritten or whatever. Most people here try to follow it. But you want to play it by your rules so do whatever the **** you want. This didn't even involve you to being with. :rolleyes:

[DragnFire22]

However, my opinion still stands on spoilers, and its enforced as much as 3 mods can handle. And I'm not sure what you meant by "it says poll up there". All I meant was, threads are THREADS first, than polls. Just because a thread is asking about opinions of a movie, doesn't mean those who haven't watched it should be expected to stay out. Those who haven't watched it shoudl be able to use these threads to their advantge to help them on selection of movies. Not to mention that fact taht these boards are global, and some people have to wait weeks before seeing a movie or TV show. SHoudl these people stay out of threads for weeks? Should they bugger off?

This is a poll to determine which take on the Joker is preferred, '89 v. '08. That is all. Now, to actually decide between Jack and Heath, you have to have seen both of them. Period. There's no two ways around that. This poll is asking opinions about the performances, not the movies in general.

And yes, they should bugger off if the movie hasn't been released where they live. There are hundreds of other threads on these forums. If they didn't want to be spoiled, they wouldn't go looking into the threads that will contain spoilers.

Not only new users are going to come in here you know. And yeah, there's a risk. I know that, everyone knows that. But then I guess it's my personal perference to be nice and not give away anything if I don't have to.

You keep mis-reading what I am saying. No where did I say only new users will come into this thread. Go back and re-read. If you still don't get it, you can't be helped. It's your personal preference to go out of your way to make sure stupid people don't get upset. That's fine. However, coddling never cures.


Funny because you like to jump in and "correct" everyone when they don't play to your line of rules either. I never said anything about this being thread policy so stop putting words in my mouth. And I'm not making anything up. Call it unwritten or whatever. Most people here try to follow it. But you want to play it by your rules so do whatever the **** you want. This didn't even involve you to being with. :rolleyes:

I will do whatever I want, thanks.

[JBond]

To be fair, the thread askes "Who WILL be better", not "who was."

I'll be willing to accept that spoilers in this thread are not as bad as official threads, but with your "everybody should just deal with it" attitude, you're coming off as not caring about spoilers at all. The fact is, spoiler tags are incredibly easy to add and should always be done so following the recent release of a movie. That is what I've been fighting to have done on these boards for some time, and when you tell people "how the boards" work you're throwing all of that to the wind. Did you know that when spoilers are posted on the boards, I often get PMs from people to fix them? Do you know how many movies get spoiled for me because I have to make sure other people don't get spoiled? (I'll give you a hint, The Dark Knight was the most recent one)

[DragnFire22]

If you don't like your job, then quit...?

I was a mod at SHH, and I only really started having fun on boards after shedding that mantle.

[Fanible]

Or you could just not aid to the problem.... just a thought.

I mean, honestly, that's like telling a cop to quit, because he doesn't like that people keep committing crimes.

[DragnFire22]

There's the error. I haven't done anything. ;)

[Fanible]

I was speaking in general. Being a mod is a service with perks, but it doesn't mean it's going to be all grand. Not that you have to like any disadvantages to the perk of said service, but someone's got to do it. All we can do is help them when we can by being members that shape the board, but not aid to the problems. The fact that the mods aren't ban happy otherwise says something.

[DragnFire22]

Like I said, if he wants to complain about people spoiling movies for him, then he can quit and let someone else do the job.