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halo7
08-08-2007, 11:37 PM
Free Speech and the Concept of "Torture Porn": Why are Critics So Hostile to "Hostel II"?
By JULIE HILDEN

Free speech advocates have often zeroed in on the hypocrisy of the ratings system of the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA): Movies with less-than-explicit sex scenes often qualify for R and NC-17 ratings, whereas even very violent movies often do not. This criticism usually is paired with the hope that this hypocrisy will someday be resolved through a more reasonable approach to ratings for movies with sex scenes.

But recently, that hope for the movie industry has been turned on its head. It now seems that the analogy between movies that depict sex and violence, respectively, will be used not to convince the MPAA to ease up on the first, but rather to justify a crackdown on the latter. Thus, the comparison between sexuality and violence may actually serve as leverage in favor of harsher ratings, rather than against them.
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That's a serious concern for those who believe in free speech. While the MPAA is of course an industry organization, and not a government body, its ratings can still have a profound effect (including a "chilling effect" for the future) upon the kind of movies that can be made and, if made, can reach broad audiences.

The phrase "torture porn," which has been repeatedly applied to the Writer/Director Eli Roth's recent movie "Hostel II," is telling in terms of the new movement to conflate sexuality and violence - and it's spreading virally. Entertainment Weekly used the term; and five of the featured reviews on the popular movie ratings site RottenTomatoes.com use variations on this theme. This summer, New York magazine's reviewer David Edelstein devoted an entire article to the concept.

While not quite new, the concept is recent - largely confined to Twenty-First Century films such as "Saw" and its sequels, and Roth's earlier films "Cabin Fever" and "Hostel." In addition, "Captivity," which premiered last Friday, June 13, has attracted the "torture porn" label - with its billboards becoming especially controversial. How long will it be before the MPAA follows the lead of movie reviewers in labeling films "torture porn"? (Meanwhile, in the context of television, Senator Sam Brownback may well succeed in convincing the FCC to move aggressively against depictions of violence, especially explicit ones - a move that has led to significant blowback from the ACLU.)

In this column, I'll argue that the "torture porn" label is damaging, unfair, and misguided. It attempts to trivialize certain movies by suggesting that their only purpose is to titillate - short-circuiting the brain to go straight to the pulse or groin. In fact, many of the visceral depictions of violence in these movies conveyed strong messages that no viewer could miss. Ironically, these messages, especially in the "Hostel" films, are typically anti-violence.

Because the real world includes violence, and because violence has such devastating effects, it would be anomalous if ideas about, and depictions of, violence didn't play a strong role in the lively "marketplace of ideas" the First Amendment protects. Aggressively protecting that marketplace of ideas, as the First Amendment commands us to do, entails protecting a wide swathe of types of expression, including those that some viewers will find overly explicit.

The Importance of Allowing Filmmakers to Rely on Context and Realism

Generally, scenes of violence are effectively interpreted by critics and the MPAA in isolation, unless the movie is truly a rare masterpiece. For example, the Oscar-nominated "Saving Private Ryan" came famously close to receiving an NC-17 for its violence, especially that of its opening, but ultimately did not, likely due to this informal masterpiece exception. In this one example, the MPAA was able to see the movie's violence in context, and in light of the perspective the movie conveyed. It was also able to see that it would have done a disservice to World War II veterans to convey a tamer portrait of what had actually happened on the battlefield.

These arguments regarding context and perspective, however, are applicable to virtually every movie; it's just that with respect to other films, the MPAA ignores them. It's nonsensical to look at scenes of violence out of context, given that viewers will only see them in context. And making violence look less realistic - less bloody, less gory, and more stylized - would be deceptive not only in masterpieces such as "Saving Private Ryan," but also in any film that purports to either locate itself in a real world, or to locate itself in a fictional world similar enough to our own that it can offer commentary on the world we live in.

The tacit masterpiece exception is also troubling in another way: It favors conventional films, and grossly discriminates against the kind of films that, while they may be interesting and popular, will never be nominated for an Academy Award. The masterpieces of Sundance may be allowed to be violent, but the masterpieces of its edgier spin-off, Slamdance, may not.

This is particularly troubling because it's not masterpieces, but edgier films, that are likely to have the most interesting and new points to make about violence.

The Cases of "Hostel" and "Hostel II": Anti-Violence Movies Wrongly Labeled "Torture Porn"

For example, it's hardly controversial to convey, as "Saving Private Ryan" did, that it's tragic when soldiers die in a just war. But it is very controversial indeed to say that even the most civilized-seeming people may be lawless sadists underneath, and that this sadism isn't aberrant; it's just an intensification and distortion of other elements in our culture.

Yet that's exactly the message of "Hostel" and "Hostel II" - a message seemingly lost on those who label the movies torture porn. Unfortunately, when these films receive that label, the movies' commentary about the violent extremes that seemingly-civilized people never reaches part of its potential audience, for would-be viewers may boycott the films based on this reductive and unfair label.

Both "Hostel" and "Hostel II' comment on the stereotype of naïve American innocence and jaded European experience. Critics highlight this kind of commentary when it appears in classic literature, but tend to ignore it when they discuss the kind of movies they tend to consider beneath them, and only condescend to review. To illustrate the contrast between brash America and weary Europe, both movies depict small groups of young Americans traveling abroad (men in "Hostel"; women in "Hostel II"). Both groups have an ugly surprise waiting for them: They will be tricked into being the victims of a club, based in Eastern Europe, at which otherwise unremarkable but extremely wealthy men and women torture and kill for sport. Even if the Americans escape, their illusions of safety and privilege will be permanently shattered.

In both movies, there is no possible question about whom the audience is rooting for. "Hostel" has a hero, and "Hostel II" a heroine; both use their wits to escape. No one's sensitivities are spared with respect to the violence to which the lead characters' friends fall prey, and that they themselves either suffer or come close to suffering. In both movies, the lawless parts of the world, where anything can happen and any service is available for a price, are clearly condemned - with "Hostel II" making a very explicit reference to several real-world societies teetering on the edge of total anarchy.

The club members, too, are presented as repellent human beings, pumping themselves up for murder as they would for a sports game or hunting trip. They kill and torture out of weakness, not strength; they are despicable. (One man spews the misogyny he cannot voice in front of his wife, in front of a helpless victim who takes her place.) They are also addicts: In "Hostel," one satisfied club member comments of the charnel house where he's just murdered someone, "You could spend all your money in that place." In "Hostel II," two club members discuss their prior sex tourism, implying that they may well be child molesters in addition to being murderers.

Make no mistake: These are the dregs. And yet, with their athlete-like pumping-up rituals and locker-room bonding, and their hunter-like indifference to the fact that their "prey" has nothing remotely like a sporting chance, they can be uncomfortably familiar, too. And this is where the movie's message comes in: These aren't monsters, they are human being who have let their darkest tendencies go much too far, and who even revel in them shamelessly. Perhaps they are even encouraged by American culture to do so. Their relationship to violence is akin to the relationship of the Michael Douglas character, Gordon Gekko, in the film "Wall Street" to money: Greed is good, and no more explanation need be given.

It thus seems very questionable, then, to deem these movies morally inferior to, say, the Oscar-winning "Silence of the Lambs" -- which makes Hannibal "The Cannibal" Lecter so sympathetic that we laugh at his puns about "having a friend over for dinner" and cheer his escape. Again, apparently the tacit masterpiece exception applies - or perhaps the movie's lack of realism regarding Lecter's cannibalism saves it; that violence all occurs off-screen.

Violence as a Selling Point: The Excitement of Boundary-Pushing

What about critics' point, though, that the movies' violence is a selling point for viewers - not its condemnation of violence, but the violence itself?

I think this point is correct, but it's not a reason to fault the movie. I believe the violence is shocking - and a draw for audiences -- because it pushes boundaries, and it pushes boundaries because it is super-realistic. It seems logical that the highly-stylized violence of movies like the "Matrix" would give way to a spate of movies that offer super-realistic violence. Any movie that shows us something we've never seen before, or shows it to us in a new way, will interest audiences for this very reason. The boundary-pushing often has interesting effects, as well: Sometimes we, as viewers, laugh when we probably should cry - perhaps baffled at some deep level by what we are seeing, and unable to process it.

In the end, it seems strange to fault "Hostel" for its very realism about violence suffered by innocents - while, at the same time paying no mind to the endless, often bloodless and supposedly well-deserved violence of summer movies. Such violence passes so quickly we often barely register a particular shooting, except to think, "Good! He got him!" In contrast, "Hostel" and "Hostel II" dwell on the horrors they depict, and condemn them.

Which kind of presentation really desensitizes us to violence? I think the answer is clear.

In the end, First Amendment doctrine counsels that speech must be free regardless of the message it sends; government censorship based on the content of speech is especially noxious. (Even pro-violence messages are protected if they do not advocate imminent violence.)

Yet it seems ironic, here, that arguments for censorship (or at least NC-17 ratings) are based on a deep misunderstanding of the message that is actually sent by the movies at issue. The label "torture porn" implies that movies like "Hostel" and "Hostel II" present torture as somehow sexy. In fact, they present it as anything but.


Its a long read but worth it. I pretty much completely agree. As a fan of the Hostel movies(though I admit the second one wasn't that great) I really think people automatically consider movies like this "beneath them" and really miss the deeper meaning of it all. The first Hostel especially was a brilliant horror film in my opinion with some deep subtext that a lot of people just seem to ignore.

DaRkKnIgHtDeTeCtIvE
08-10-2007, 12:40 AM
Let me first say that I have not seen the Hostel films, they just aren't my type of film, horror or otherwise, so I can't speak to the supposed underlying message or moral of the story that this writer claims they provide. But the way these films are advertised as being "Too explicit to show these scenes on TV" or "See the film so graphic they won't let us show you these scenes" blah blah and show ONLY the scenes of implied torture and mutilation..to someone like myself, who very much finds these films a waste of any mentally stable persons time, I would NEVER expect to find a moral message or social commentary in a movie about sadists killing, torturing and mutilating for personal gratification or sport..so excuse me if I fully agree w/ the label that this films get, even if that makes me "unsophisticated" or a hypocrite for not viewing a movie that promotes cruelty and disgusting, in-humane acts perpetrated on helpless victims. I get enough of that sickness on the nightly news, and quite honestly think that it's a step back for first amendment rights to protect this trash. And before you accuse me of being some religious, or neo-conservative nut job...I can assure you I am quite the opposite. I just have a general respect for human life and not viewing it being taken from someone, fictional or otherwise in this sick and twisted fashion that these movies promote.

Drizzt240
08-10-2007, 12:46 AM
I'm all about sex and violence. :cool:

halo7
08-10-2007, 12:50 AM
Let me first say that I have not seen the Hostel films, they just aren't my type of film, horror or otherwise, so I can't speak to the supposed underlying message or moral of the story that this writer claims they provide. But the way these films are advertised as being "Too explicit to show these scenes on TV" or "See the film so graphic they won't let us show you these scenes" blah blah and show ONLY the scenes of implied torture and mutilation..to someone like myself, who very much finds these films a waste of any mentally stable persons time, I would NEVER expect to find a moral message or social commentary in a movie about sadists killing, torturing and mutilating for personal gratification or sport..so excuse me if I fully agree w/ the label that this films get, even if that makes me "unsophisticated" or a hypocrite for not viewing a movie that promotes cruelty and disgusting, in-humane acts perpetrated on helpless victims. I get enough of that sickness on the nightly news, and quite honestly think that it's a step back for first amendment rights to protect this trash. And before you accuse me of being some religious, or neo-conservative nut job...I can assure you I am quite the opposite. I just have a general respect for human life and not viewing it being taken from someone, fictional or otherwise in this sick and twisted fashion that these movies promote.


No offense but I am guessing you didn't really read the article. Considering its about how the film is anti-violence and how its misrepresented in the media. So all you are saying to me is that for some reason even though you know it has a deeper message and is not all about the violence. You choose to ignore it because of some TV spots that misrepresent the movie.

Ramplate
08-10-2007, 02:03 AM
I really didn't like Hostel and really don't care what message they were trying to convey - it's not really entertainment to me.
I have seen less gory in your face movies that produce the same message and effect without going over the vomit edge.

DaRkKnIgHtDeTeCtIvE
08-10-2007, 02:06 AM
No, actually I did read the article, and the writers "opinion" is that these types of movies are misrepresented. The writer, (of which I have no idea who they write for) uses their obvious fondness of films such as Hostel, as a reason to tell me why I should believe their interpretation of the film as having a message or being about the evil that lies in darkest shadows of every persons souls... and because the author of the article is obviously not biased, I should ignore the blatant brutal imagery and sadistic overtones that a film like Hostel is based around and try to find the thought provoking message of why these sick ****s like to mutilate helpless victims?? And yes, as I stated before I have not seen the Hostel movies or the last two SAW films, because I can't enjoy seeing the unnecessary and unusually cruel deaths that these movies depict, especially as a form of my own entertainment. Maybe thats the REAL underlying social commentary, people watching these films because they enjoy the brutality as a form of entertainment.

halo7
08-10-2007, 10:16 AM
No, actually I did read the article, and the writers "opinion" is that these types of movies are misrepresented. The writer, (of which I have no idea who they write for) uses their obvious fondness of films such as Hostel, as a reason to tell me why I should believe their interpretation of the film as having a message or being about the evil that lies in darkest shadows of every persons souls... and because the author of the article is obviously not biased, I should ignore the blatant brutal imagery and sadistic overtones that a film like Hostel is based around and try to find the thought provoking message of why these sick ****s like to mutilate helpless victims?? And yes, as I stated before I have not seen the Hostel movies or the last two SAW films, because I can't enjoy seeing the unnecessary and unusually cruel deaths that these movies depict, especially as a form of my own entertainment. Maybe thats the REAL underlying social commentary, people watching these films because they enjoy the brutality as a form of entertainment.


I am baffled at how completely you don't understand. It seriously surprises me how one person can fit the type of person this article describes and be completely unaware of it.

Ramplate
08-10-2007, 10:29 AM
it is a particular view point talked about in the article that not everyone agrees with halo.
I don't praticularly either

halo7
08-10-2007, 10:32 AM
it is a particular view point talked about in the article that not everyone agrees with halo.
I don't praticularly either

I understand he does not agree with the view point. But the underlying argument he seems to be thinking is that anyone that enjoyed Hostel or claims to see deeper subtext is just turned on by violence. Which isn't true at all.

Ramplate
08-10-2007, 01:21 PM
ok.
By the way I did like the idea of the first SAW movie because there was also a great deal of psychological involvement to it - but I didn't care so much for the next one, but the Hostel movie was to me, just a sick and twisted expose.
I couldn't believe Tarantino would put his name on it as presenting that. It doesn't have the calibre of his own films

DaRkKnIgHtDeTeCtIvE
08-10-2007, 04:27 PM
No offense but I am guessing you didn't really read the article. Considering its about how the film is anti-violence and how its misrepresented in the media. So all you are saying to me is that for some reason even though you know it has a deeper message and is not all about the violence. You choose to ignore it because of some TV spots that misrepresent the movie.

Actually, I don't know that, it was in the opinion of the author of the article that the film has a deeper message, not me, I still believe it's exactly what it's labeled "Torture Porn". As far as the Advertisement's "misrepresenting" the films "heartfelt underlying message", who's fault is that?? The studio puts out the Ad and if it doesn't sufficiently do the movie justice then it wouldn't be representing the film on TV. I also don't buy that a film so graphic (again, going by word of mouth and what I've read about the film) is this vehicle for an Anti-Violence message,all the while depicting acts of horrible violence. I am a HUGE Tarantino fan and was really let down that he involved himself in this film.

DaRkKnIgHtDeTeCtIvE
08-10-2007, 04:41 PM
I understand he does not agree with the view point. But the underlying argument he seems to be thinking is that anyone that enjoyed Hostel or claims to see deeper subtext is just turned on by violence. Which isn't true at all.

Ok, maybe by insinuating that I have offended you, as a fan of the Hostel films..and for that I am sorry. I realize that not everyone that watches Hostel or films like it are turned on by violence, but then why promote it only based on the most violent and deviant aspects of the film? Because people aren't going to watch this film for a message, it's a shock-horror film and that's the draw..not the message..maybe not for you, but I'll be willing to bet most watch for the sex,violence and shock value.

Ewok Droppings
08-10-2007, 06:16 PM
I watched both Hostel movies. While I thought the second one sucked, I thought the first one was interesting. But, I would also have to disagree with the article posted. While you can make the claim that there is deeper meaning in the Hostel movies - it's a far stretch to compare them to Saving Private Ryan. I simply don't agree that it's meant to promote this anti-violence message. Hostel was about violence and sex and the underlying message was hypocritical if it was simply trying to say that the movie was to show that violence is bad.

halo7
08-10-2007, 06:31 PM
I watched both Hostel movies. While I thought the second one sucked, I thought the first one was interesting. But, I would also have to disagree with the article posted. While you can make the claim that there is deeper meaning in the Hostel movies - it's a far stretch to compare them to Saving Private Ryan. I simply don't agree that it's meant to promote this anti-violence message. Hostel was about violence and sex and the underlying message was hypocritical if it was simply trying to say that the movie was to show that violence is bad.

I kind of agree with you here. I don't think the film was anti-violence (but it certainly wasn't promoting it).

What I really liked about the first Hostel was how there was immense character development before it really delved into the Hostel parts of the story.I thought it was very well put together.

Thats probably why I didnt like Hostel Part II as much. While one side of the story was interesting (the two business men) the other side was very uninteresting with unlikable characters.

DeadFlagBlues
08-11-2007, 05:15 PM
Well, the article was an interesting read. It, indeed, contained many good points. But all in all we must judge for ourselves whether Hostel was even a good film for that matter; no matter the "underlying meanings". Because, for one, the characters are pure cardboard (filled with cliches and stereotypes). The films were amateur at best and nothing more. If the entire point of these films is to contain an anti-violence message or whatever underlying message it contained was overshadowed by poor filmmaking.

The main problem I have with Hostel is that its entire selling point is of violence and sex. No one goes to see these films for any other reason. So we must ask ourselves whether it us that are at fault for having any remote desire to witness such horrible events. Perhaps we are searching for a meaning behind the extreme violence to try and rationalize our desires to see such horrible events.

Regardless, I disagree with the label of "torture porn" because its ridiculous.

Knerys
08-11-2007, 05:27 PM
I'm all about sex and violence. :cool:

That comment, plus your avatar......ahhhhh made my night.

Thanks.

Ewok Droppings
08-11-2007, 05:38 PM
I don't think the film was anti-violence (but it certainly wasn't promoting it).
I would say it was promoting it just by showing the things that they showed. I think just about any horror movie promotes violence. If they didn't want to promote it, then they wouldn't have actually shown the torture scenes, but they did. It's hard to claim both sides of the argument with a film. That's like saying that premarital sex is bad by filming a porn movie about it.

halo7
08-11-2007, 05:45 PM
I would say it was promoting it just by showing the things that they showed. I think just about any horror movie promotes violence. If they didn't want to promote it, then they wouldn't have actually shown the torture scenes, but they did. It's hard to claim both sides of the argument with a film. That's like saying that premarital sex is bad by filming a porn movie about it.

So by showing violence, the film was condoning and promoting violence.

Okay..

Ewok Droppings
08-11-2007, 08:22 PM
So by showing violence, the film was condoning and promoting violence.

Okay..
I personally don't think it was condoning violence at all. I understand their hidden message (or their claim); I'm just not sure I buy it. But how could you really argue that a movie as violent as Hostel was doesn't help promote violence?

DeadFlagBlues
08-11-2007, 08:31 PM
I personally don't think it was condoning violence at all. I understand their hidden message (or their claim); I'm just not sure I buy it. But how could you really argue that a movie as violent as Hostel was doesn't help promote violence?

I think many might argue that the true, harsh nature of violence might act as a deterrent. Usually, in an extremely violent film (that is realistic in nature) the audience is more inclined to turn their head. Whereas, a film that plays with violence like in a typical Hollywood action film, the audience receives enjoyment and not the "true" nature of it. But, as always, it depends on the individual.

Andrey83
08-12-2007, 06:27 AM
I think many might argue that the true, harsh nature of violence might act as a deterrent. Usually, in an extremely violent film (that is realistic in nature) the audience is more inclined to turn their head. Whereas, a film that plays with violence like in a typical Hollywood action film, the audience receives enjoyment and not the "true" nature of it. But, as always, it depends on the individual.

Yeah, im one of those. Not that im a chicken or anything, I just dont like to see guts be pulled out of a living man. Doesnt really matter if its a movie or real life.

DeadFlagBlues
08-12-2007, 11:19 AM
Yeah, im one of those. Not that im a chicken or anything, I just dont like to see guts be pulled out of a living man. Doesnt really matter if its a movie or real life.

I completely understand how you feel. I'm one of those, as well.

halo7
08-12-2007, 11:28 AM
I personally don't think it was condoning violence at all. I understand their hidden message (or their claim); I'm just not sure I buy it. But how could you really argue that a movie as violent as Hostel was doesn't help promote violence?

I mean it promotes the fake violence within itself as a selling point, yes. But thats not what I was referring to when I said "Promoting violence".

Ewok Droppings
08-12-2007, 01:24 PM
I mean it promotes the fake violence within itself as a selling point, yes. But thats not what I was referring to when I said "Promoting violence".Well, I'm talking about movies being violent in nature typically promote violence in society IMO.

I think many might argue that the true, harsh nature of violence might act as a deterrent. Usually, in an extremely violent film (that is realistic in nature) the audience is more inclined to turn their head. Whereas, a film that plays with violence like in a typical Hollywood action film, the audience receives enjoyment and not the "true" nature of it. But, as always, it depends on the individual.

I personally don't agree with your logic at all. I think our minds don't act as filters that when we put garbage in, we get something better out. I think that when people are exposed to extremely violent movies that it doesn't usually have the opposite effect of making them more pleasant and less violent. You, as someone who believes so heavily in psychology, should know better than that. Most psychological studies indicate that very point. Here's one for an example:

http://www.research.vt.edu/resmag/sciencecol/media_violence.html
Violent movies can increase violent responses in real life

Two recently published studies show that prolonged exposure to gratuitous violence in the media can escalate subsequent hostile behaviors and, among some viewers, foster greater acceptance of violence as a means of conflict resolution.

The two studies were conducted by James B. Weaver III, head of the Department of Communication Studies at Virginia Tech, and Dolf Zillmann of the University of Alabama. In one study, the researchers wanted to see if frequent, consistent exposure to violence in films would bring out in people a greater support of violent solutions to social problems. The researchers set up an investigation in which 53 male and 40 female college students with various behavior types (empathetic, Type A, etc.) participated for extra credit in a class. They first took tests to determine their primary personality traits. Then they were told they would view five films, one each evening, to evaluate the films’ viability in the video market. They were exposed to nonviolent or gratuitously violent films over four consecutive days and rated those films. The films included innocuous movies, such as "Driving Miss Daisy" and "Little Man Tate," in which conflicts are resolved without bodily harm, and violent films, such as "Universal Soldier" and "Excessive Force," representing the new cinematic genre of superviolent movies that are laden with maimings and killings and often have a hero who uses such violence.
The researchers were surprised at the strong effect of media violence on the responses of non-provoked persons.

On the fifth day, approximately 24 hours after viewing the fourth film, the students were told the researchers had enough data on the video-rental study, but they could participate in a substitute project to earn their full credit. They took part in a project that they were not told was a part of the film study. An experimenter and helper administered tasks that the students were told would indicate whether they possessed important interaction skills or lacked them. The experimenter then gave them either good scores or poor grades with comments such as "Awful!" and "I sure wouldn’t hire you!" The students then were sent to the professor’s office, where they were asked to help the professor decide whether the new assistants should be given financial assistance or denied it.

Weaver and Zillmann found that no matter what type film the students saw, they reacted in a hostile manner toward the experimenter if they were provoked,. (recommending that they be denied financial assistance). Exposure to the gratuitously violent film also produced this effect without provocation by the experimenter. The study showed that prolonged exposure to gratuitously violent films is can escalate hostile behavior in both men and women and instigate such behavior in unprovoked research participants. They determined that the effect is not short lived, but remains for some time after the viewing of the films.

The researchers were surprised at the strong effect of media violence on the responses of non-provoked persons. They speculate that perhaps the fact that the fifth film was replaced with more demanding assignments annoyed the participants enough to reactivate the hostile concepts implanted by the movies. "If that is the case," Weaver says, "it could be showing that prolonged exposure to media violence can facilitate hostility indiscriminately. That is, it may be that the concepts of hostility planted by the media violence can be activated by any ill feelings and can foster mean-spiritedness toward the person’s social environment at large."

The researchers found other surprising responses. Women rated the experimenter as less courteous than did males, and people with empathetic, extraverted, or Type A behaviors also were more hostile. The researchers speculate that, since the experimenters were all female, the women participants were hostile to their authority and "felt comparatively uninhibited in their hostile behavior toward female targets." Too, the male participants may have been exhibiting chivalry in rating the experimenters as more courteous, Weaver says. As for extraverts, they may be more apprehensive of being evaluated and react negatively to the authoritative ? and especially to the abusive ? evaluations. Type A people may have been impatient and annoyed at changing from viewing a film to taking tests, the researchers said.

In a second study, Weaver and Zillmann took a more global approach to see how violence in the media affected participants’ reactions to things that did not involve them personally. They first gave them tests to determine the level of psychoticism in their personality. (Psychoticism as measured on the revised Eysenck scale used by the researchers is a trait characterized by hostile disposition, lack of empathy, and contempt for risks and danger ? a general disregard for society’s preferences. It is not the mass-murderer/ultra dangerous person associated with the general term psychopath.) The researchers exposed participants (also students who would get class credit for completing the experiment) to four types of films ? nonviolent, old-style violence (e.g., "Glory"), gratuitous violence (e.g., "Death Warrant"), and horror (e.g., "Howling VI"), again ostensibly so the participants could rate them for marketability. A day after the fourth film, the researchers told the participants they were taking part in a different study on conflict resolution. They were given conflict scenarios, ranging from two kindergarten children fighting to domestic violence, and asked to evaluate various violent and nonviolent resolutions and to indicate how they would respond to the situation. Two-hundred ten men and women completed the study.

The researchers found that men who perceived themselves as socially deviant and egocentric (Eysenck’s version of psychotic) were more likely to accept violence as a means of resolving societal conflicts after watching four movies with gratuitous violence. Watching old-style violence or horror movies did not have that effect. The psychotic men also more strongly endorsed the death penalty after watching such movies. The result is socially significant, Weaver says, because roughly half of the college men in the study fell into the upper half range of this socially indifferent personality.

Other results showed that women prefer to negotiate settlements to problems and men deem violent options more effective, including recklessly violent options. Women, whether high or low in psychoticism, failed to prefer violent resolutions even after viewing the gratuitous violence. Males at the lower end of the psychoticism scale also preferred nonviolence. The fact that men with high-psychotic profiles elected violent solutions may simply reflect a general preference for violent options by men in this group, Weaver says. They may, in fact, seek out such violent movies.

The two tests, Weaver says, were not looking for the mass murderers of the world, but were trying to determine the effects of films with gratuitous violence on the general population. "We’re talking here about some people in everyday life who may not find it okay to beat up someone, but do find it all right to exchange harsh words and insult other people. These films with gratuitous violence make people less civil, more willing to say things in a meeting or in a classroom that were inappropriate a few years ago. It seems tied to the role models seen and the lessons learned from different types of films."

The studies show a callousness of world view, Weaver says. Person A says something bad to Person B and, because Person B has viewed gratuitous violence, he reacts more harshly than he would have reacted otherwise. "I think this tendency will increase," Weaver says, "because these films are teaching people it’s okay to break the rules of civility."

The two studies were published in the Journal of Applied Social Psychology and the journal Personality and Individual Differences, respectively. Overall, Weaver says, both studies indicate a need to take personality traits into consideration when studying the effects of violent films on the subsequent behavior of individuals.
Article by Sally Harris

I'm not trying to defend or reject movies like Hostel, I personally enjoyed the first one - but I just don't think you can rationally make the argument that by showing violence you're somehow promoting anti-violence. That's my opinion anyways.

Ramplate
08-12-2007, 01:50 PM
I agree with that, but I also don't think its ultimately movies that are to blame for violent crime - it's people that have a perpensity towards that leaning in the first place that cross the line in real life.
Copycat crimes are a problem but those people get into that idea and run with it because they have a problem in the first place.

just wanted to add that :)

Ewok Droppings
08-12-2007, 05:53 PM
I wouldn't disagree with that. I'm not trying to "blame" movies for violence, but I'm saying they aren't helping the matter either. If someone's teetering on the edge of a violent behavior - sitting around watching a bunch of horror flicks probably isn't what the doctor would prescribe.

FranklinTard
08-12-2007, 06:02 PM
yea its not a question of the intent of the movie, but rather the effect it has in desensitizing people to acts of violence.

Ramplate
08-12-2007, 06:31 PM
I wouldn't disagree with that. I'm not trying to "blame" movies for violence, but I'm saying they aren't helping the matter either. If someone's teetering on the edge of a violent behavior - sitting around watching a bunch of horror flicks probably isn't what the doctor would prescribe.

heh heh that's for sure :D

DeadFlagBlues
08-12-2007, 07:35 PM
Well, I'm talking about movies being violent in nature typically promote violence in society IMO.



I personally don't agree with your logic at all. I think our minds don't act as filters that when we put garbage in, we get something better out. I think that when people are exposed to extremely violent movies that it doesn't usually have the opposite effect of making them more pleasant and less violent. You, as someone who believes so heavily in psychology, should know better than that. Most psychological studies indicate that very point. Here's one for an example:

http://www.research.vt.edu/resmag/sciencecol/media_violence.html


I'm not trying to defend or reject movies like Hostel, I personally enjoyed the first one - but I just don't think you can rationally make the argument that by showing violence you're somehow promoting anti-violence. That's my opinion anyways.

I never once stated psychological studies did not show that. I simply stated a contrary argument. I, for one, do believe that extreme violence can cause adverse effects on the individual. But for one, you can't generalize the entire population in that manner. Some individuals have a much stronger mentality than that. In some cases, yes, the film (or any medium) will cause adverse effects depending on the individual. But is that always the case? Hardly.

Your article was interesting (but hardly anything I have not read before). I will have to point out the simple fact that these students were repeatedly exposed to violence. Whereas, in the real world, outside of experiment, the individual is not repeatedly exposed to violence in film. Unless you are implying that everyone watches extremely violent films every day (which may be the case at times, but certainly not always). There are always outside sources of violent behavior. We can't link all violence to one source.

But for the most part I do agree with you. Violence can have adverse effects on the individual. Although, as I've stated it does depend on the individual. No one person is the same in this case. We may have similar tendencies and temperaments, but we all will react differently. Saying otherwise would be a great fallacy and extremely presumptuous.

It depends on the individual. That is my point.

Ewok Droppings
08-13-2007, 01:07 AM
I never once stated psychological studies did not show that. I simply stated a contrary argument. I, for one, do believe that extreme violence can cause adverse effects on the individual. But for one, you can't generalize the entire population in that manner. Some individuals have a much stronger mentality than that. In some cases, yes, the film (or any medium) will cause adverse effects depending on the individual. But is that always the case? Hardly.

Your article was interesting (but hardly anything I have not read before). I will have to point out the simple fact that these students were repeatedly exposed to violence. Whereas, in the real world, outside of experiment, the individual is not repeatedly exposed to violence in film. Unless you are implying that everyone watches extremely violent films every day (which may be the case at times, but certainly not always). There are always outside sources of violent behavior. We can't link all violence to one source.

But for the most part I do agree with you. Violence can have adverse effects on the individual. Although, as I've stated it does depend on the individual. No one person is the same in this case. We may have similar tendencies and temperaments, but we all will react differently. Saying otherwise would be a great fallacy and extremely presumptuous.

It depends on the individual. That is my point.

??? sometimes I think you like to argue just for the sake of argument. You ramble on about stuff but never really come to a meaningful point. Of course it always depends on an individual. There's no surefire way to say "doing this, or watching that will make them go crazy". If that's your point - then no kidding.

Andrey83
08-13-2007, 04:24 AM
yea its not a question of the intent of the movie, but rather the effect it has in desensitizing people to acts of violence.

I've always taken issue with that statement. I think what Fanible said still counts here.

Take me for example (anecdotal evidence sucks i know, but anyway): I've seen tons and tons of very violent movies. I would still freak out if I saw a real person with his guts hanging out of him, or his head sawed of. Just because i've seen it in a fictional setting (in which my brain knows its fictional) doesnt meen its easier or worse to see it in real life.

But if a man has a problem in the first place it wouldnt really matter. He'd still be turned on by blood and guts.