Sons of the Steward scene discussion

[thewickedchild]

This was one of my favorite scenes from TTT:EE, and is absolutely brilliant in terms of acting and showing the dynamics of the relationships of Boromir, Faramir, and Denethor. I also liked that it shed more light on why Faramir acted the way he did in the movie.

However, this scene raised a flag for me in regards to FOTR. According to this scene, Denethor sent Boromir to Rivendell to claim the ring. If this is the case, then all of Boromir's actions in the first movie are brought into question. When he became part of the fellowship, was he merely biding his time until he could take the ring? Or perhaps was he convinced by the arguments and decided that he must help see the erand through even though it wasn't what he wanted (or was ordered) to do; then subsequently succumbed to the power of the ring?

I am interested to see what others think about this.

[JEDI_THE_WHITE]

His primary objective was to claim the ring, but the will of the council was to take the ring to mordor and as he said "Gondor will see it done."

Then it became an issue of Boromor being taken by the ring, though end the end he redeemed himself by trying to save Merry and Pip.

That's the way I look at it.

[Andrey83]

The way i look at it was that the council convinced him. Or he got more or less convinced on the trip. But the ring drove him mad. And he did things he didnt want to...

[thewickedchild]

Yeah, my question isn't so much in regards to the end (trying to take the ring, saving M&P, and then dying) but rather towards his intentions upon joining the Fellowship.

My hunch is similar to what you two mentioned, however, it seems to me it could be interpreted different, and would make for an interesting non-ROTK discussion. :)

[Andrey83]

I dont think he ever had the intention of claiming the ring. Sure, that is what Denethor wanted. But Boromir didnt even want to go.

So when he went, he probably didnt realy know what to do.

[The Moose]

i'm with andrey. i don't think that he initially wanted to claim the ring, but denethor it was who wanted the ring. the council convinced him to help with the quest, but as we all know, the ring seduced him, but he made it up by defending Merry and Pippin

[JEDI_THE_WHITE]

Yeah. Andrey said it best.

[thewickedchild]

The only thing that goes against this suggestion though is when you watch FOTR:EE, he gets up as soon as Frodo brings out the ring, talks about his dream then goes to take the ring, until Gandalf starts speaking in the black toungue.

[flukeman]

It's almost like he's in a trance at that point - like the ring is actually pulling him towards itself. He sort of "snaps out of it" when Gandalf starts speaking.

[PsYkOoOoO]

I think he's pulled between the two decisions.On one hand he wants to take the ring for himself,or for his father.On the other hand he wants to destroy it as well.

[Boro]

boromir>faramir.

they should have given boromir the ring from the start.

[PsYkOoOoO]

Originally posted by thewickedchild
This was one of my favorite scenes from TTT:EE, and is absolutely brilliant in terms of acting and showing the dynamics of the relationships of Boromir, Faramir, and Denethor. I also liked that it shed more light on why Faramir acted the way he did in the movie.



By the way,i really love this scene too.

Especially when Faramir looks up at Boromir,and Boromir says,"Remember this day,little brother."

That gave me chills...

[Necross]

Also one of my favorite scenes out of all three movies. Mainly because it is all three of them together. One of those non book scenes that I am so glad he decided to create.

[Anglachel_Sword]

Ahhhhh, that thing is not that way on book. In the movie they turn Denethor into a greedy guy for the ring.

I don´t like that!!! But the rest is OK

[Necross]

He was greedy for the ring in the book too. He says to Faramir in the book that Boromir would have brought him back a might gift. I don't think he was greedy as in, use it for power, he even says in the movie that its dangerous and he wants it for his people.

[Anglachel_Sword]

Yeah, but maybe later, but Denethor sent Boromir to Rivendell to find out about a riddle, a Faramir´s dream, no mention about the ring; then in Rivendell Boro find out about the ring.

No hint about Denethor being greed with the ring at that time, and that was not exactly Boro´s mission.

Anyway, Denethor was changed for the movie a lot, has nothing to do with book Denethor

[Necross]

I can understand why they changed it from a riddle to simply the ring though, non book readers really wouldn't have gotten the whole riddle thing. Also I don't think they changed his character so much. They just left out the Palantir which basically brought out Denethor's tortured side. He was still quite the jerk in the book, but I do understand where you are coming from.

[PsYkOoOoO]

When i read the book for the first time Denethor was the same as the one in the book.Haha.Ive always hated him,and thought there was nothing good in him.

Well,that was my image of Denethor until my second and third read of the book.He changed from being a mad man to a really desperate guy.Thats how i saw it.

[fattybolger]

Just some thoughts...

The Ring has a will of its own and is constantly seeking to return to its master...it uses delusions of grandeur to deceive individuals to carry out its own desire...Denothor may have known more than he let on to Boromir because of the palantir; Sauron was certainly sapping what courage he had and replacing it with despair...Boromir may have been his father's pawn, but he was most certainly the Ring's for a season, as were many others.

[Kurufinwe]

Originally posted by thewickedchild
However, this scene raised a flag for me in regards to FOTR. According to this scene, Denethor sent Boromir to Rivendell to claim the ring. If this is the case, then all of Boromir's actions in the first movie are brought into question. When he became part of the fellowship, was he merely biding his time until he could take the ring? Or perhaps was he convinced by the arguments and decided that he must help see the erand through even though it wasn't what he wanted (or was ordered) to do; then subsequently succumbed to the power of the ring?

I am interested to see what others think about this.

But non new of the ring before Frodo showed it the council of Elrond?? Is this a mistake in the movie? (Just wondering) :confused:

[thewickedchild]

Originally posted by Kurufinwe
But non new of the ring before Frodo showed it the council of Elrond?? Is this a mistake in the movie? (Just wondering) :confused:

Hmm. It's hard to say for sure... but Denethor certainly knew something was up when Elrond called a council (remember, unlike the books where everyone ended up in Rivendell "by chance, if chance it was"... in the movie, Elrond calls everyone there.

As I remember in the book, Denethor was described as being keener than normal men (even without the aid of the Palantir... Faramir showed a bit of this while dealing with Frodo and Sam in Ithillien). They never really explain how Denethor knew... but my guess is that it's something along those lines.

I suppose it's possible he looked in the palantir and saw something, but since that isn't in the movies at all, it's not really an option.

[Anglachel_Sword]

Well, again, I disagree with movie changes, Denethor is far away for being evil in the book and there´s no reason for hating him reading the book (But people unable to undertand the situation, of course) Really can´t understand people´s hates for Denethor but however.
Watching the movie is another story, they took the easy way to show an evil, mad and incompetent Denethor without any complication.
He do change, a lot.

But well, movies, we know how movies based on books are...

[beyond_th3]

But I thought boromir going to rivendell was to solve a riddle that faramir dreamnt, not to claim a ring. it wasn't until the end(or beginning) when he tried to take the ring from frodo.

[Necross]

Yes it was and in the FOTR EE and even in TTT TC, they mention the riddles. Boromir says it in the FOTR EE, and Faramir says it in the TTT TC. My thoughts are that for the movie, Denethor didn't know about the riddle and made Boromir leave to claim the ring as his father asked (Faramir could have told Boromir about the dream he had), but at the Council he decided to help destroy it, but the ring used his guilt of not claiming the ring for his father against him, in turn causing him to try and take it.

As for Denethor being evil, he wasn't in the books OR the movie. The movie simply left out the Palantir but if anyone with any shread of intelligence watched the scenes they would see his madness is caused by the death of Boromir and then exteneded by the "death" of Faramir, however he was a jerk in the book just as much as he was in the movie. He disagreed with Gandalf in both and was willing to kill his son in both. Again the movie portrayed him perfectly, just no scenes with the Palantir.

[thewickedchild]

Originally posted by beyond_th3
But I thought boromir going to rivendell was to solve a riddle that faramir dreamnt, not to claim a ring. it wasn't until the end(or beginning) when he tried to take the ring from frodo.

In the books, yes. However, according to TTT:EE, he was sent by Denethor to claim the ring.

[Necross]

Read my most recent post :D

[thewickedchild]

I read your post, but I felt it necessary to point out the difference between the book and movie. Although the 'riddle' is mentioned in the movies, this scene shows that was NOT the reason Boromir was sent to Rivendell.

[Necross]

OH I know, I posted wrong, I just meant that the riddle was mentioned, not that it was the reason he went, sorry.

I think the best way to describe whats going on is this quote from the movie.

Boromir: "My father is a noble man, but his rule is failing, and our people lose faith. He looks to me to make things right and I would do, I would see the glory of Gondor restored...."