FOTR question

[Mr. Frodo]

ok tryin to kill time and start a discussion and this was kinda buggin me ... why does Bilbo willingly give up the ring? i know he didn't want to but he lets it go with his own power. He has had it for 60 years and it should have a signifigant grip on him. I know Gandalf played a part in it but is it really him taking gandalf's word? if they were in Mt. doom and gandalf said stuff would he let it go? no.

what do ya think?

[The Moose]

bilbo didn't give up the ring of his own accord. the only thing that stopped him from taking the ring with him wsa, as oyu mentioned, gandalf. the ring did have a massive effect on him, as we see in the start of the FOTR:EE, and in the end of ROTK, byt how decrepit bilbo has become when he is on the way to the havens.

and the ring wanted to stay with bilbo, and this is discussed by PJ et al on the writers commentary i think it is, on the FOTR EE, as shown by bilbo's hand getting to an almost vertical position before the ring fell tot he floor

[KenM]

IMO Bilbo did not really use the ring much after "the Hobbit", so it might have had less off an effect on him then say Gollum, who IMO used it more. Just my thoughts.

[Mr. Frodo]

but Bilbo "let it go" so to speak which Frodo couldn't do later ( i know he was in the cracks of doom) . and i love the effect of the ring wanting to stay with Bilbo. Even when Faramir "caught" Frodo the ring had taken hold of him much more and Frodo woulndn't give it up at that point. which raises the question could a younger Bilbo destroy the ring?

[The Moose]

IMO, it all depends on how long this person has had the ring. frodo had been given it when bildo left, and there were 17 years between bilbo leaving and frodo leaving, and then the year and a bit that frodo was on the road with sam, and constantly getting closer to mordor, and byinthat, the effect of the ring on the bearer became greater, and also the power of sauron was growing. so if a young bilbo, found the ring, and trudged straight off to mordor, i'd think that he's probably be able to destroy it

[KenM]

Originally posted by The Moose
IMO, and there were 17 years between bilbo leaving and frodo leaving, ........

Thats only in the book, they leave much sooner in the movie.

[The Moose]

it's actually the same time span in the movie. we just don't see the time passing, nor are we told, but it's there

[Mr. Frodo]

how do we know its the same time if we don't see time passing or told.... I assume that it dosen't take gandalf 17 years to go to Minas Tirith and read some books ;) and nobody ages except of course Bilbo when they meet up again but we know age is going to catch up with him because he no longer carries the one.

[The Moose]

in one of the commentaires, PJ says.

[Mr. Frodo]

lol i guess that is a worthy source and comeback :)

i stand corrected.

[The Moose]

why thank you Mr. Frodo

[fattybolger]

... and also the power of sauron was growing...

A key point, Moose:) As Sauron strengthened, his effect on all of Middle Earth seems to increase in the film...witness the waning of Arwen....

[The Moose]

i did say a little something about that, but i didn't take it that far. the thought is it happe ing to arwen didn't occur to me then. thanks

[Undome-Elenamin]

Okay, since there's no need for another thread: Why is Arwen waning? I never really understood that. I mean, I read the book twice already but I don't think I ever found anything that explains that.

[The Moose]

it didn't really explain it in the books, as far as i found. arwen is giving up her elvenimmortality, and thus she's no longer an elf, thus the line "your hands are cold. the grace of the eldar is leaving you"

to do with the ring, i think that it may be something to do witht eh connection between aragorn and sauron, but that's only a guess

[fattybolger]

Originally posted by The Moose
it didn't really explain it in the books, as far as i found. arwen is giving up her elvenimmortality, and thus she's no longer an elf, thus the line "your hands are cold. the grace of the eldar is leaving you"

to do with the ring, i think that it may be something to do witht eh connection between aragorn and sauron, but that's only a guess

And a good one, IMO...although Arwen may have some status in PJ's scheme of things that isn't clear to us (yet):)

[The Moose]

hopefully it will be explained on the EE

[Mr. Frodo]

well i think that it was just PJ inserting more importance into Arwen. If Aragorn fights for Frodo and becomes king he may save Arwen. Good point in Saurons' power growing fattyboldger.

[fattybolger]

excerpts from a passage in ROTK concerning the effects of the Ring on Sam:
...he felt himself enlarged, as if he were robed in a huge distorted shadow of himself...Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age...

In that hour it was the love of his master that helped most to hold him firm;but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit sense...the one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm...

[The Moose]

if i remember, that was the time that sam first put hte ring on, and he was in mordor at that time. thus the ring has a very powerful effect on him

[fattybolger]

Originally posted by The Moose
if i remember, that was the time that sam first put hte ring on, and he was in mordor at that time. thus the ring has a very powerful effect on him

Absolutely dead on:applaud: IMO one of Tolkein's most powerful passages...I believe the ring had a similar effect on each it encountered, taking their hopes and dreams and corrupting them through overinflation...along Milton's idea of evil being twisted good...:)

[Mr. Frodo]

yes sam did have the ring...and he did give it up... though i feel sam had a duty... to serve frodo. He may possibly have thrown it in the fire if he took it from frodo say in the cracks of doom or on mount doom because he wouldn't have much interaction with it. but as i posted above bilbo had it for 60 years and gave it up. This wouldn't happen as long as Frodo lived though.

[fattybolger]

Originally posted by Mr. Frodo
yes sam did have the ring...and he did give it up... though i feel sam had a duty... to serve frodo. He may possibly have thrown it in the fire if he took it from frodo say in the cracks of doom or on mount doom because he wouldn't have much interaction with it. but as i posted above bilbo had it for 60 years and gave it up. This wouldn't happen as long as Frodo lived though.

Possibly Frodo was more "corrupted" than Bilbo because he had been stabbed on Weathertop by WiKi... :)

[The Moose]

ahd shelob didn't help much either

[fattybolger]

Originally posted by The Moose
ahd shelob didn't help much either

Hadn't thought of that...poor Mr. Frodo was beat up, stabbed, stung, whipped , etc...not to mention hunger and thirst...this could have worn down any resistance he might have offered?

Bilbo suffered very little abuse in comparasion...

[The Moose]

hmmmm. and bilbo wasn't anywhere near mordor either. nor was sauron as powerful

[fattybolger]

Originally posted by The Moose
hmmmm. and bilbo wasn't anywhere near mordor either. nor was sauron as powerful

There's an underlying theme in Tolkein that nothing happens by chance...possibly Bilbo was "meant' for his role, as Frodo was 'custom fit" to his? :)

[flukeman]

And that is an encouraging thought ;)

[fattybolger]

Originally posted by flukeman
And that is an encouraging thought ;)

Yes, my dear sea maiden, it is:)

[The Moose]

and gandalf even said that to frodo in Moria

[fattybolger]

Originally posted by The Moose
and gandalf even said that to frodo in Moria

Had forgotten that exchange with Frodo, Moose...that's one of the things I love about both JRR's and PJ's work...so many gems to mine...

[The Moose]

but so many of those gems are so hard to find

[Mr. Frodo]

good points guys. yeah Frodo was pretty messed up. If only he wouldn't fall down so much :D

[fattybolger]

But that's the fun...the journey, the discovery, the PRECIOUS!!!
(whoops)

I should explain that...my wife kids me that Tolkein is my ring of power...when I get into his works, I DISAPPEAR!

[The Moose]

hahahahahahahaha

[Andrey83]

Originally posted by The Moose
ahd shelob didn't help much either

But Frodo had Sam. Without sam, frodo wouldnt even gotten out of his door. Sam is the Hero imo.....

[The Moose]

and the best thing is he doesn't even see himself as a hero. as far as he sees it, he's doing his duty

[fineus fog]

smawise the brave is exactly what he is.
and yes i totally agree with you r points about saurons power growing, i think arwens fate is more of a movie thing than a book thing (i think its touched on very briefly in the appendices) PJ just needed to give Aragorn another worthy cause -

love

[Andrey83]

No, no. You dont understand. There are few who does.

Somehow, everyone seems to think that Arwen is directly connected to the ring or something. No, no.

The point is, she has chosen mortality. That meens if saurons power grows, defeats mankind. Etc. Kills whats left on middle-earth, she will be killed too......

I think peopel over analyze that matter too much. Its just the way the elves talk you know.

[Kurufinwe]

Originally posted by The Moose
hmmmm. and bilbo wasn't anywhere near mordor either. nor was sauron as powerful

Exactly... And I think it plays an important factor that the ring laid dormant when Bilbo had it, but began to awake when it was passed on to Frodo (because it was about that time the shadow began to grow).

[flukeman]

Originally posted by Andrey83
No, no. You dont understand. There are few who does.

Somehow, everyone seems to think that Arwen is directly connected to the ring or something. No, no.

The point is, she has chosen mortality. That meens if saurons power grows, defeats mankind. Etc. Kills whats left on middle-earth, she will be killed too......

I think peopel over analyze that matter too much. Its just the way the elves talk you know.

No, I don't think it's as general as that, Andrey. I think PJ wanted to make Arwen's role a little greater, and to up the stakes a little higher, as others have said. It doesn't really make sense that she's all of a sudden dying, but I do think that's the point PJ was trying to make.

Elrond: "Arwen is dying. She will not long survive the evil that now spreads from Mordor. The light of the Evenstar is failing. As Sauron's power grows, her strength wanes. Arwen's life is now tied directly to the fate of the Ring."

That passage from Elrond gives the whole situation a sense of urgency, like this suddenly started happening. And the scenes with him and Arwen illustrate that she is really failing, not just that she will die with everyone else whenever Sauron wins.

[Andrey83]

She isnt suddenly dying. that is just a dream Aragorn is having.....

[flukeman]

She's dying when she is in Rivendell with Elrond. He says her hands are cold, the life of the Eldar is leaving her. He tells Aragorn she is dying. It doesn't have anything to do with his dream....

[Kurufinwe]

Originally posted by Andrey83
She isnt suddenly dying. that is just a dream Aragorn is having.....

Wrong... Its Elrond that says that she is dying, when he hans Aragorn the sword.

[Andrey83]

Originally posted by flukeman
She's dying when she is in Rivendell with Elrond. He says her hands are cold, the life of the Eldar is leaving her. He tells Aragorn she is dying. It doesn't have anything to do with his dream....

The reason why her hands are cold is because she has given up her imortality. An elf cant get cold hands. Her hands are cold. That is the point. She have given up her imortality = ergo she is dying. Like we all mortal beings are.

[Andrey83]

Originally posted by Kurufinwe
Wrong... Its Elrond that says that she is dying, when he hans Aragorn the sword.

I know that. But it is simply the way the elves talk. Its not like she is dying like right now.

More like, she has given up her imortality, and then she is slowly dying.

No ship can carry her ergo her fate is bound within the ring. Like all beings on middle earth are.

[Kurufinwe]

Originally posted by Andrey83
I know that. But it is simply the way the elves talk. Its not like she is dying like right now.

More like, she has given up her imortality, and then she is slowly dying.

No ship can carry her ergo her fate is bound within the ring. Like all beings on middle earth are.

No I don't buy that... If Elrond had not yet left to Valinor she was still immortal and therefore not bound to linger in middle-Earth. As long as Elrond still lingered in middle-earth Arwen still had a choise.

[Mr. Frodo]

no, she even said there is no ship now that can bear her hence. even if she went with Elrond she would have eventually died because she gave up her imortality.

[Andrey83]

Correct mr. Frodo. She HAD given up her imortality. Thats why hands are cold. It is.....

after he toutch them she says: "this was my choice".

[Kurufinwe]

Originally posted by Mr. Frodo
no, she even said there is no ship now that can bear her hence. even if she went with Elrond she would have eventually died because she gave up her imortality.

I'm sorry but you are wrong... Arwen could not "give up" her immortality; only the Valar could grant you mortality. Arwen could only be mortal if Elrond left middle-Earth.

Quote from Appendix A:

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

The clearly states that she first became mortal when Elrond left Middle-Earth... until that she was still Immortal.

[Mr. Frodo]

Originally posted by Kurufinwe
I'm sorry but you are wrong... Arwen could not "give up" her immortality; only the Valar could grant you mortality. Arwen could only be mortal if Elrond left middle-Earth.

Quote from Appendix A:



The clearly states that she first became mortal when Elrond left Middle-Earth... until that she was still Immortal.

you may be correct but if she went with elrond her "spirit" would eventually die knowing she passed up Aragorn. Her body may function but it's like Frodo and the ring.... the shire was saved but not for him... if that makes any logical sence.

[KenM]

Originally posted by The Moose
it's actually the same time span in the movie. we just don't see the time passing, nor are we told, but it's there

IMO thats one of the things I did not like about the books, that they wait so long before leaving. If time was of the essence, they should have left sooner. I also think if that much time had passed in the movie, it should have been mentioned someplace. it is clear that some time has passed, as the ring is still in the envlope, and at the bottom of the chest when Frodo goes to get it.

[Andrey83]

Then why is her hands cold tell me that?

Movies are not the books.....

[Undome-Elenamin]

After looking through all of this discussion, I think Andrey has the point. Arwen is one of the Eldar therefore she (like other Elves from what I hear) is never cold. The fact that her hands grow cold signifies that the life of the Eldar is leaving her. It hasn't left completely but it's not staying either. Someone pointed out the part in the Appendix where it says that she can't lose her immortality until Elrond leaves to the west. Well folks, that's in the books and we all know very well that PJ didn't stick completely true to the book. The fact that Arwen is even in the movies so many times shows you that.

[The Moose]

you just hit the nail straight on the head Undome.

[fattybolger]

[i]
Movies are not the books..... [/B]


What a great discussion...:) !This is been a key point when I'm trying to mesh the PJ and Tolkein...certain perspectives are enhanced or diminished depending on the medium...JRR is the original, but I'm sure he had no idea folks would be so enamored by his work that we'd passionately dissect it as we do, and that one Mr. Jackson would come along and attempt the impossible task of making great cinema while keeping us fans all happy:applaud:

IMHO when Arwen made her choice, she died, was dying, and was going to die:confused: PJ emphasized one part of the process:)

[Mr. Frodo]

yeah imo PJ made it so she was dying already and if Frodo didin't destroy it Arwen would completly die thus making Aragron's journey more personal than it already was.

[Turin Turambar]

Bilbo was able to give up the ring because it was still "sleeping" so to speak. It didn't wake up until the Nazgul set out on their chase 17 years later. From then, Frodo felt constant pressure from outside sources to put on the ring, which is what the ring/Sauron wanted.

It's hard to say if anyone would have gotten as far on the Quest than Frodo. Tolkien, interestingly enough, said that the "Quest was doomed to fail before it even began." When Gandalf asked Frodo to throw the ring into his little hearth to see if it was the One Ring, Frodo put it in his pocket. Even THEN he couldn't willingly part with the ring, or damage it. But he set out nonetheless, and only through Sam and Gollum was the Quest achieved.

Tolkien also says that Frodo claiming the ring at the end was the most logical conclusion to the story. There are some evils that can not be conquered. The ring was too much for Frodo--who unlike other heros of medieval times was not a powerful warrior, brave and strong and true. Frodo had weaknesses. But he got as far as he did, and therefore God rewarded Frodo by intervening when all was doomed by putting Gollum in Frodo's way and falling into the chasm with the ring to complete the quest.

Therefore I doubt anybody else besides Frodo could have gotten as far as he did. We shouldn't belittle Frodo's heroics based on his actions because he was facing an evil that was way beyond his or anyone else's understanding and by getting to Mt Doom accomplished what nobody else could dare attempt.

"Bilbo was meant to have the ring"--in order to get it from Gollum and give it to Frodo--"and therefore Frodo was also meant to have it"--to complete the Quest.

[fattybolger]

Originally posted by Turin Turambar
"Bilbo was meant to have the ring"--in order to get it from Gollum and give it to Frodo--"and therefore Frodo was also meant to have it"--to complete the Quest.

Well put:applaud:

[Mr. Frodo]

Originally posted by Turin Turambar
Bilbo was able to give up the ring because it was still "sleeping" so to speak. It didn't wake up until the Nazgul set out on their chase 17 years later. From then, Frodo felt constant pressure from outside sources to put on the ring, which is what the ring/Sauron wanted.

It's hard to say if anyone would have gotten as far on the Quest than Frodo. Tolkien, interestingly enough, said that the "Quest was doomed to fail before it even began." When Gandalf asked Frodo to throw the ring into his little hearth to see if it was the One Ring, Frodo put it in his pocket. Even THEN he couldn't willingly part with the ring, or damage it. But he set out nonetheless, and only through Sam and Gollum was the Quest achieved.

Tolkien also says that Frodo claiming the ring at the end was the most logical conclusion to the story. There are some evils that can not be conquered. The ring was too much for Frodo--who unlike other heros of medieval times was not a powerful warrior, brave and strong and true. Frodo had weaknesses. But he got as far as he did, and therefore God rewarded Frodo by intervening when all was doomed by putting Gollum in Frodo's way and falling into the chasm with the ring to complete the quest.

Therefore I doubt anybody else besides Frodo could have gotten as far as he did. We shouldn't belittle Frodo's heroics based on his actions because he was facing an evil that was way beyond his or anyone else's understanding and by getting to Mt Doom accomplished what nobody else could dare attempt.

"Bilbo was meant to have the ring"--in order to get it from Gollum and give it to Frodo--"and therefore Frodo was also meant to have it"--to complete the Quest.

:applaud: thanks for the info!

[Necross]

Originally posted by Undome-Elenamin
After looking through all of this discussion, I think Andrey has the point. Arwen is one of the Eldar therefore she (like other Elves from what I hear) is never cold. The fact that her hands grow cold signifies that the life of the Eldar is leaving her. It hasn't left completely but it's not staying either. Someone pointed out the part in the Appendix where it says that she can't lose her immortality until Elrond leaves to the west. Well folks, that's in the books and we all know very well that PJ didn't stick completely true to the book. The fact that Arwen is even in the movies so many times shows you that.


Exactly and I mean we have to KNOW whats happening to her during the movie. We can't have the Grey Havens scene and then bam it cuts to Arwen going, "Hmm my hands are cold."

[Necross]

Originally posted by Turin Turambar
Bilbo was able to give up the ring because it was still "sleeping" so to speak. It didn't wake up until the Nazgul set out on their chase 17 years later. From then, Frodo felt constant pressure from outside sources to put on the ring, which is what the ring/Sauron wanted.

It's hard to say if anyone would have gotten as far on the Quest than Frodo. Tolkien, interestingly enough, said that the "Quest was doomed to fail before it even began." When Gandalf asked Frodo to throw the ring into his little hearth to see if it was the One Ring, Frodo put it in his pocket. Even THEN he couldn't willingly part with the ring, or damage it. But he set out nonetheless, and only through Sam and Gollum was the Quest achieved.

Tolkien also says that Frodo claiming the ring at the end was the most logical conclusion to the story. There are some evils that can not be conquered. The ring was too much for Frodo--who unlike other heros of medieval times was not a powerful warrior, brave and strong and true. Frodo had weaknesses. But he got as far as he did, and therefore God rewarded Frodo by intervening when all was doomed by putting Gollum in Frodo's way and falling into the chasm with the ring to complete the quest.

Therefore I doubt anybody else besides Frodo could have gotten as far as he did. We shouldn't belittle Frodo's heroics based on his actions because he was facing an evil that was way beyond his or anyone else's understanding and by getting to Mt Doom accomplished what nobody else could dare attempt.

"Bilbo was meant to have the ring"--in order to get it from Gollum and give it to Frodo--"and therefore Frodo was also meant to have it"--to complete the Quest.

I completely agree! Yay Frodo!

[Andrey83]

Very good post Turin!!