Is there racism in middle earth?

[deo]

When I first saw the trailers for TFOTR, I got a little suspicious of the all white cast, and how their skin was made to look extremely pale. Then I downloaded the books off the internet (for free of course) to see if the movie was accurate to the books. Not only was the movie accurate to the books, but to my shock, I learned that the books were far more racist than the movies could ever be. I especially hated the fact that the villains are mostly described as being "a dark skinned, dark eyes, dark haired race". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Tolkien was talking about Africans and middle easterns in Europe. look, I am not trying to say that the movie should have had a multi racial cast. I am willing to believe that everyone in middle earth is white, but why do the villains have to be black? I have seen all three of the movies, only because I hate people that criticize something without seeing it. but they were all bootleg from a friend, and the studio wont see a cent of my money. Now I know that I could be exaggerating here but here are some links that make my point...
http://film.guardian.co.uk/lordoftherings/news/0,11016,852217,00.html
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jan/08lord.htm

there are also threads on the IMDB message boards and the modelminority.com boards about this topic.

[Lasgalen]

Tolkien lived in Africa wit appartite, so I guess its just the way he was brought up and the times he lived in. I think the themes of fellowship and friendship (IMHO) Kinda make up for it though.

Its a geographical thing too, our guys are from the North, the bad guys are from the East and the South which has been corrupted by Mordor.

Maybe Im just trying to justify this stuff because I dont believe anyone who could write with that kind of conviction could at the end of the day be racist, so usually when someone sugests that I just like to stick my fingers in my ears and go *la la la la* because its easier than arguing back after a while.

[Cbars]

One thing I hate about the world is the fact that something can't just be enjoyed. It always has to be analyzed from every angle, I seriously doubt that tolkien thought, Oh, I am going to write a racist book. It doesn't matter WHAT you look at, you can find some kind of problem with it if you look hard enough. If you choose to look at your life that way you will be miserable, but that is your choice. I for one am not going to go searching for problems or something to complain about.

[PsYkOoOoO]

you really have to look at it from a metaphoric point of view..the reason why the bad guys are darker and the good guys are...less dark is because well the bad guys are...the bad guys..the dark side..you cant expect one of the bad guys to have bright light surrounding them..its just to emphasis the fact that they are from the dark side..it is because they are frm the dark side thats why they are dark..not because they are dark thats why they are frm the dark side..

[deo]

I'm not trying to say that Tolkien is racist. I don't know the guy well enough to say that, and I don't like throwing the word around lightly. But even if his books were well intentioned, with themes of friendship, and honor, you cant deny the obvious references to race being associated with goodness in the books. the elves where described as being the most honorable and purist of the races, with the whitest skin. And the orcs where the worst, being born villains, with the darkest skin. Gandalf was weak when he was Gandalf the gray, but he was strong when he was Gandalf the white. And everything that is associated with goodness in the stories, are all describes as being white or something similar. and so forth and so on...

I was never a fan of the LOTR, so this doesn't disappoint me. But I can understand how so many LOTR fans can be in denial over this matter. I remember how I felt, reading the lost world, by Arthur Conan, for the first time. I loved the book very much till I got the Zambo character, who was described like a man would describe an animal. "The first is a gigantic negro named Zambo, who is a black Hercules, as willing as any horse, and about as intelligent." That description absolutely broke my heart, and further description of this man and his grammar where no better. I love the lost world, but I cant deny the racism that clearly exist. If you are a fan of the LOTR books, great, all the power to you, but you cant deny the racist references that are clearly present in those stories.

[PsYkOoOoO]

like i said dude..you dont expect bad guys in a movie to have the whitest skin with radiance while the good guys are dirty and dark..screams and yells...carry scary weapons and stuff..coz what they represent is evil...like i said..it is because they are frm the dark side thats why they are dark..not because they are dark thats why they are frm the dark side..those are not racist references...or rather its a way to represent the evil...how do u show that this race is the bad guy without knowing them
??especially in fantasy books..they will look ugly..dirty...stuff like that...so...the skin colour of the bad guys will obviously be darker and stuff..its a fantasy story..

do u actually believe that he will make gandalf become gandalf the black when he's more powerful?that'll be ridiculous..

[zamphir66]

Race is a fantasy. It is arbitrary. There is no scientific basis for subdividing homo sapiens into "races."

[PsYkOoOoO]

hmmm...that makes sense...really?

[RingWraith2k4]

As a LOTR fan, I take offense to that comment of "being in denial". Many of us who love LOTR like it for THE STORY and THE CHARACTERS, and we are not stupid when taking notice of what the characters look like.
I'm Hispanic and I don't give care if there aren't any spanish or african, asian, etc. or whatever. I don't read or watch movies looking to see if it's diverse. All I care about is a good story.
Besides. It's an F'N FANTASY STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's not based on real life.
And unlike some people, I don't see color or look for negative hidden messages, I see characters and a great epic story!
That's it!

[PsYkOoOoO]

yea..i can say..how come most chinese in movies like lethal weapon 4 and rush hour are bad guys?

[BRussell]

I'm not sure which is worse, making bad guys have dark skin, or stealing books and movies.

[tiff_t_t]

People who b!tch about racism in LOTR always seem to conveniently forget that Saruman is WHITE.

I'm sick of hearing this same pseudo-analytical crap over and over.

[Lasgalen]

I cant remember now, but isnt someone in Gondor described as "dark skinned" ? Im sure I remember reading it and I think I posted it on LOTR Plaza a while ago.

[zamphir66]

what i mean Psykoo is that racial subdivisions are merely aesthetic, that is, appearances only. there is really no difference between me and an asian and an african apart from appearances. yes, I know that there are plenty of people in the world that make a very big deal out of those appearances, it's certainly a big part of history and human nature, but the best thing to do is forget about it, dismiss it as the divisive thing it is.

[Pwnst1k]

Dude, I believe in tolerance and equality and all that but, forget you. Tolkien isn't racist, and even if he was, that's not the meaning behind black = evil. Look in the thesaurus, black is always associated with evil. Doesn't meant black people in particular.

Tolkien was also pissed when people started making the forces of mordor out as a metaphor for Nazi's and crap.

Whateva'

[Brandy]

The African American Film Critics recently voted The Lord of the Rings: Return of the King as the best movie of 2003 . . guess they didn't find the film racist . . . :rolleyes:

African American Film Critics (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/ae/2316996)

African-American Film Critics Top Ten Movies of 2003
1 LOTR: Return of the King
2 Lost in Translation
3 In America
4 Dirty Pretty Things
5 The Last Samurai
6 Finding Nemo
7 The Italian Job
8 Tupac: Ressurection
9 City of God
10 Mystic River

[jpdill]

They're african american - not Middle Eastern!

[obsessedwithsnl]

well LOTR has an all white cast because it's suppose to be legend/myth for england and i think we all know that blacks (and other races) didn't originate from england...

[deo]

I understand what all of you are trying to say, but you have to understand that this is not as simple as those old westerns where good guys wear white and bad guys wear black. And remember, I am talking about the books here, not the movies. Not that the movies are much different from the books. Tolkien describes a world where a persons goodness was based on his race, his skin color, where he was born, and the purity of his blood. And he also describe evil in the same way, being based on race, birthplace, culture, and of course skin color. That goes far beyond, and has a much deeper meaning than the color of a characters outfit. There are clear references of white supremacy in the books and here are some quotes:

"It seemed that the evil power in Mirkwood had been driven out by
the White Council..."

"Frodo saw that they were goodly men, pale-skinned, dark of hair, with grey eyes and faces sad and proud."

'Hail, Lord and Steward of Minas Tirith... Then the old man looked up. Pippin saw his carven face with its proud bones and skin like ivory."

"Presently two orcs came into view. One was clad in ragged brown and was armed with a bow of horn; it was of a small breed, black-skinned, with wide and snuffling nostrils: evidently a tracker of some kind."

in the end we will all see what we want to see in the books. I see racism, you see fantasy. Once again, just because you like the books, doesn't mean you have to like the person that wrote it.

We can argue about this forever, and I am sure that the LOTR fans in this forum are lining up to argue with me. But I guess the only thing that we can agree on, is that we will never agree on the underlined meaning of Tolkien's writing.

[Dracula]

So you wanted albino orcs?

[deo]

Originally posted by Dracula
So you wanted albino orcs?

dude, you are missing the point that I am trying to make here. look at the description of the orcs, "black-skinned, with wide and snuffling nostrils"... That sounds like the old description of an African man, by Europeans in the 30's and 40's. Read between the lines.

[Dracula]

since when did black people have snuffling nostrils?

[Cbars]

Like I said before, it does not matter what you take, you can twist it until you find something offensive about it. Anything can be turned into something bad if you try hard enough.

[PsYkOoOoO]

cbars...one post to explain everything..

[Mr.Matinee]

Well I've ssen grey orcs,and there is that one orc captian in ROTK that is white,the one with one eye...

Besides,I remember reading in one of those appendixes or info web sites that orcs origibally were elves that ere corrupted by evil,so much so to the point where the physically mutated.The same with Gollum due to the ring's influence.Black,in LOTR, usually symbolizes evil, darkness, and ruthlessness.If you want to see this as a jab as African americans, whatever.

[Doomsday]

It's threads and arguements like these that make (white) people like me racist. I go to a pretty liberal school where all the black people think I'm there mainly to oppress them. I really wanna just go off and drop some N-bombs just for the sake of makin em mad. I'm not racist by a long shot, I just think that people are so oversenstive, and I also think that if ANYONE is racist nowadays, it's the african-american community. Black people I think are a lot more racist than white people are nowadays.

[PsYkOoOoO]

u trying to say that they are racist because they think that people are racist against them?

[deo]

lets get technical here...

1. I never said that the movie was racist, I said the books were racist.

2. I don't think that Tolkien was referring to African Americans, I think he was referring to Africans and Indians (their really is a difference).

3. my views against Tolkien would not be seen as racist, but prejudice (as in to pre-judge).

and lastly, doomsday, if you were to "drop the N-bomb", it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. as a matter of fact it would actually be expected. And yes, my views of you are prejudice not racist.

[Queen Arwen]

As PsYkOoOoO stated before, these books have to be taken metaphorically. Many of my fellow posters and LOTR book/film fans have said that black is synonymous with evil. It's been proven true by history itself! However, if you really want to get technical with the books, your statement about Gandalf being weaker when he was Grey was completely out of line! He was perhaps more prone to human weakness, but consider this: Gandalf gave up the power of the Ring as the Grey. That makes him hella strong!!! Also, as Cbars stated before, Saruman is WHITE. He becomes evil through association with Sauron, who is not even in PHYSICAL form yet has the power to corrupt regardless of his "color." Some of the books' strongest characters are dark: Aragorn, whom I respect deeply as one of the greatest heroes in all of fiction, is most amazing for me before he even becomes King. He wears dark colors, has unkempt dark hair, is dirty and grimy, and even has dark eyes! Gandalf is Grey. The Rivendell Elves have dark hair and wear dark colors. The Gondorians have dark hair. Honestly, if you really don't know or appreciate Tolkien anyway, why must you completely twist the intent of the novel?

[Ancalime]

Isn't Sam described as having brown skin and brown eyes in the book? Also, I think the book describes Treebeard as having dark skin. Correct me if I'm wrong. Oh, and in the movie a lot of the Gondorian soldiers have dark curly hair and sallow skin. ;)

[Izzy]

Originally posted by Mr.Matinee
Black,in LOTR, usually symbolizes evil, darkness, and ruthlessness.If you want to see this as a jab as African americans, whatever.

Well the superstition of the black cat crossing your path was a form of racism created during the times of slavery. So using black as a representation of evil can be rightly seen as another form of racism. So saying that the color black represents evil doesn't really do anyone justice.

I also remember a part where Gandalf was walking into meduseld and said he was being chased by black men. Then the guard at the door responded saying, "I will let no black man come through these doors." Something like that.

I wondered about the whole racism thing too. And the fact that there was a white orc in the movie doesn't mean there was a white orc in the book. There have been many changes from the book to movie, everyone knows that.

Saying that the orcs were once elves doesn't prove anything. They're still using the black skin color as a representation of evil.

Plus, saying that it can't be seen as racism since J.R.R. Tokien was brought up around african american's doesn't mean he can't be racist towards dark skinned people. A native kid could grow up around caucasians and still hate them.

[Izzy]

Originally posted by Doomsday
It's threads and arguements like these that make (white) people like me racist. I go to a pretty liberal school where all the black people think I'm there mainly to oppress them. I really wanna just go off and drop some N-bombs just for the sake of makin em mad. I'm not racist by a long shot, I just think that people are so oversenstive, and I also think that if ANYONE is racist nowadays, it's the african-american community. Black people I think are a lot more racist than white people are nowadays.

Your ancestors ****ing enslaved theirs! Jesus. You're so ignorant. What did white people have to go through? Oh yeah, they just went all over the ****ing place enslaving people and taking everything from people. Do you see any black people forming groups like KKK? I don't think so. And you're dropping "N-bombs" just to make black people mad? You're a goddamn racist. Open your eyes! You're being racist just by saying all black people are more racist than white people. Jeez.

[DangerMouse]

Last time I checked, there weren't any "dark skinned" characters in Greek, Norse, or Russian mythology.

I suppose those were rascist as well. Maybe we should "revise" those stories, so no one feels offended.

Would you rather Tolkien inserted a "token" black character?

The Lord of the Rings is what it is.

Fantasy.

If Tolkien meant to have racist overtones, there would've been black slaves in the story or some sort of "black" character that only did menial tasks, or included some sort of character that fit a stereotype. But instead, Tolkien took alot from his experience in WWI, and infused that into the story.

Last time I checked, there weren't very many "dark skinned" people in WWI. So I suppose that was a racist war.

You can fish for racism everywhere if you look hard enough.

But the real question is this: Is it true racism that you're finding, or is it racism you're creating?

The Lord of the Rings, as a 3 part novel, is NOT racist, unless you want to create it from nothing.

[PsYkOoOoO]

i dont think stories like king arthur and stuff had any 'dark skinned' characters as well...hmm...in fact a lot of these myths dont have 'dark skinned' characters...

[Brandy]

>>I especially hated the fact that the villains are mostly described as being "a dark skinned, dark eyes, dark haired race". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Tolkien was talking about Africans and middle easterns in Europe. look, I am not trying to say that the movie should have had a multi racial cast. I am willing to believe that everyone in middle earth is white, but why do the villains have to be black?<<

Sauron was described as being 'of fair form' until his downfall. Saruman was white, and corrupted . . but more importantly, if you are going to delve into Tolkien's books, please report them fairly. All the Ringwraiths were great Kings of men . . of all races . . and corrupted . . what is important to remember about Tolkien is that he created Sauron to be an equal opportunity corrupter. Sauron corrupts all he comes in contact with, all races, with very little exception (Sauron seems to have overlooked the hobbits) . . he even deceived the elves into creating One powerful Ring.

Sauron deceived the entire race of Numenor of which Aragorn descended. The Numenorians were destroyed . . all, but Aragorn's blood line . . and, all were white, and all brought shame because of what they tried to do. Illuvator caused their great homeland to sink into the ocean. He only allowed Elrond's brother safe passage (Aragorn's ancestor) to Middle-earth.

Sauron was later reported to have 'walked among' all the peoples of Middle-earth (except hobbits which he never noticed) including the land of the Southerns and Haradrim. Tolkien never describes them as being evil at all . . instead, much like the pity demonstrated for each flawed character and race . . Tolkien includes Sam musing over a dead soldier. In one of the most beautiful passages of The Two Towers, Sam wonders who this soldier might be, if he had a home, and whether the soldier would have preferred to live in peace.

Tolkien also disliked the 'filth of industry' . . the destruction of forests. He considered ANYONE an orc, no matter which side - good or evil - white, black, brown, green - if they supported the industry. Tolkien saw cruelty in war, not only from the supposed 'bad guys', but the 'good guys' as well . . an orc could be anyone on either side that was cruel just for the sake of cruelty.

There is no empirical evidence in Tolkien's work or his extensive letters that indicates he was racist. His motivation for LOTR was to create a mythology for Great Britain . . and, simply, that is the perspective he used.

I'll leave you with this thought by Samwise Gamgee as he looked upon the face of a Southron:

Then suddenly straight over the rim of their sheltering bank, a man fell, crashing through the slender trees, nearly on top of them. He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword.

It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face.
He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threads had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace.

Also please remember that one of Tolkien's themes throughout his books . . is pity and mercy for all . . even Sauron is pitied.

And, for the argument that Tolkien was personally biased. Well, he was born in South Africa, and once wrote a letter about racism to his son. He notes in the letter, that the treatment of colored people in South Africa always "horrifies" those who go there from Great Britain. Unfortunately, he states, that "glorious sentiment" they have typically doesn't last long. Long before it was politically fashionable to deplore South African racism, Tolkien was doing so.

:p

[drjones]

I'm in a big hurry, so I'm sorry if I just say something that someone else has already said.

Tolkien said that the stories were just stories. There is no hidden meaning to the stories. All the main characters are white because the story describes them asbeing European-like civilizations, so it only makes sense that they are European. I know someone else said that the dark skin symbolized the orcs, etc being on the dark side. It symbolizes that and nothin more.

[zamphir66]

Originally posted by Izzy
Your ancestors ****ing enslaved theirs! Jesus. You're so ignorant. What did white people have to go through? Oh yeah, they just went all over the ****ing place enslaving people and taking everything from people. Do you see any black people forming groups like KKK? I don't think so. And you're dropping "N-bombs" just to make black people mad? You're a goddamn racist. Open your eyes! You're being racist just by saying all black people are more racist than white people. Jeez.

Yes, you have a point, but that was like 150 plus years ago. This just demonstrates what I'm trying to say. As long as we dwell on old injustices, we can't move forward. I'm white, but I just can't be made to feel guilty about something my great-great-great grandparents did. We have to move past these things. I know that racism still exists, that's obvious enough, but the way we deal with it today is just ass-backwards. We institute affirmative action b/c a certain people are at a disadvantage. And you know what? They will always be at a disadvantage, as long as they're told they are through this kind of reinforcement. Put money into schools, police departments, parks, inner-city cleanup, etc, and you wouldn't need affirmative action. If there has to be affirmative action, then make it for poor people of all races. That's still a weird system and kind of un-American, but at least then we wouldn't be singling out a racial group and telling them that they have it so much harder than everyone else. Poor people have it hard, no matter what your skin color. Wow, that's off topic.

[king_of_hetzer]

Deo, I completely understand your point, because I too once thought what you are thinking. But, remember, Tolkein is a classical type person. In literature, the dark side is evil and the white/light side is good. It's only true, I am sorry.

This is what defines human literature, that dark is evil, and bright is good.


Besides, even if Tolkein was racist, it is not his fault. He, if racist, would be racist because of the factor that he lived in South Africa. OMG, imagine living there during his era? The racism must've been intense. It's the same with transexuals and homosexuals today, someone from the 90's generation may have been very against either of them. Tolkein's only human.

[Doomsday]

Originally posted by Izzy
Your ancestors ****ing enslaved theirs! Jesus. You're so ignorant. What did white people have to go through? Oh yeah, they just went all over the ****ing place enslaving people and taking everything from people. Do you see any black people forming groups like KKK? I don't think so. And you're dropping "N-bombs" just to make black people mad? You're a goddamn racist. Open your eyes! You're being racist just by saying all black people are more racist than white people. Jeez.

1) My ancestors never had slaves, sorry.
2) There aren't any black slaves in America, their parents weren't slaves, and their parents weren't slaves.
3) Black groups like the KKK? 2 words: Black Panthers
4) One thing that I am upset about that I didn't state is that black people can show pride for their race, Chinese, Indians, etc. If a white person were to go make a white pride group, he'd be deemed racist, no matter what they were trying to do, whether or not they were trying to be racist in the first place. If a black person was calling people "cracker, gring, etc" no one would care or do anything about it. But if I were to even so much as call an african american "black" I'm automatically labelled a racist. Hmm, fishy, no?

PS, The white people aren't the ones that did the actual enslaving, they bought them from Africans who enslaved people form other tribes. It was a simple matter of covenience.

[Cbars]

This is something we should not even be discussing. It is MOOT point, and there is nothing that is going to be gained by talking about it other than a lot of people getting upset. People end up banned over topics like this. There is nothing that can be done even if it was Tolkiens intent, so let's move on. If's that is what you believe, then you can make the choice to not make this part of your life.

[Undome-Elenamin]

I'm hispanic and I have friends from all different types of cultures. I don't think the books are racist or the movies for that matter either. If you think about it the orcs and i think the uruks too were once elves. THey were corrupted and then they had to work for Saruman. they worked (according to the movies i can't remember too much detail of this in the book) in these huge ditches burning trees and making weapons. they would probably be forever covered in soot. Eventually it might come to pass that their skin became darker.
Also about Saruman being white. He used to be a good character until he was corrupted by Sauron and the palantir. He's not going to just change from white to black out of nowhere.
Personally i don't think Tolkien was a racist. If he was you have to think about the fact that he lived in South Africa. Racism was all around him and it may have affected him even if it was only in his writing. Just like some homosexuals today can't come out because people think less of them Tolkien might not have been able to say 'no i do not hate other races. i think everyone of any race is equal to me'. Thats JMO

[CORBEAN3]

I hope one day we'll all live in a color blind society that doesn't keep tabs on who's got what and who's got nothing.

[Brock Landers]

Originally posted by zamphir66
Yes, you have a point, but that was like 150 plus years ago. This just demonstrates what I'm trying to say. As long as we dwell on old injustices, we can't move forward. I'm white, but I just can't be made to feel guilty about something my great-great-great grandparents did. We have to move past these things. I know that racism still exists, that's obvious enough, but the way we deal with it today is just ass-backwards. We institute affirmative action b/c a certain people are at a disadvantage. And you know what? They will always be at a disadvantage, as long as they're told they are through this kind of reinforcement. Put money into schools, police departments, parks, inner-city cleanup, etc, and you wouldn't need affirmative action. If there has to be affirmative action, then make it for poor people of all races. That's still a weird system and kind of un-American, but at least then we wouldn't be singling out a racial group and telling them that they have it so much harder than everyone else. Poor people have it hard, no matter what your skin color. Wow, that's off topic.

Agreed 100% with you, duder. You have the Brock Landers seal of approval ;)

[Rogue]

Let's get it back on topic, everyone. The thread is about whether racism may be present in Tolkien's work, not our society, present day or historically. It's getting out of hand so please get it back on topic.

[pungolo reporte]

racism? but ROTK has just been declared as the best movie of the year by the Afro-American Movie Critics Association!! ^_____^

http://www.eurweb.com/articles/headlines/12262003/headlines1259212262003.cfm

[Rizor]

And, for the argument that Tolkien was personally biased. Well, he was born in South Africa, and once wrote a letter about racism to his son. He notes in the letter, that the treatment of colored people in South Africa always "horrifies" those who go there from Great Britain. Unfortunately, he states, that "glorious sentiment" they have typically doesn't last long. Long before it was politically fashionable to deplore South African racism, Tolkien was doing so. A somewhat amusing anecdote:
When he was a kid in South Africa, he was actually kidnapped by one of his family's African workers who took him to a village and showed off the white baby! According to the bio I read, the Tolkiens were cool about it.

[QUINNtheESKIMO]

I was very shocked that the only people in the world capable of being corrupted by Sauramon were people of color. That entire armies and nations, from the EAST, where people are not WHITE, were the only armies and nations who would be persuaded or WILLING to take sauromon's side.

I would be willing to believe that everyone in middle-earth, or the realms that we visit in the story are white. But I cannot accept that the only good people are white. Its just strange, and I found it to be rather alarming, and I wish that PJ would have changed that part.

[JBomb87]

Originally posted by Doomsday



4) One thing that I am upset about that I didn't state is that black people can show pride for their race, Chinese, Indians, etc. If a white person were to go make a white pride group, he'd be deemed racist, no matter what they were trying to do, whether or not they were trying to be racist in the first place. If a black person was calling people "cracker, gring, etc" no one would care or do anything about it. But if I were to even so much as call an african american "black" I'm automatically labelled a racist. Hmm, fishy, no?



Their are no such thing as someone being purly white. They're descendents of British, Italian, Irish, German, etc liniage. They do show pride of their culture. But they're not considered racists. So thats an unethical statement you just made.

Now back to Tolkien literature. No his books are not racist or bisased. He uses dark to explain the mood of the people in the story.

[QUINNtheESKIMO]

Originally posted by JBomb87
Their are no such thing as someone being purly white. They're descendents of British, Italian, Irish, German, etc liniage. They do show pride of their culture. But they're not considered racists. So thats an unethical statement you just made.

yeah, and black people would be the same way, as they came from many different parts of Africa(western mostly); except that the white man stripped them of their culture and history when they were brought to america.

[Brock Landers]

Originally posted by Rizor
A somewhat amusing anecdote:
When he was a kid in South Africa, he was actually kidnapped by one of his family's African workers who took him to a village and showed off the white baby! According to the bio I read, the Tolkiens were cool about it.

Wow. I've NEVER heard that before. Quite interesting :)

[Rizor]

I was very shocked that the only people in the world capable of being corrupted by Sauramon were people of color.The Wild Men (who attack the villages at the beginning of TTT) are white.

I don't think it's as clear cut as all black people, asians, etc are evil. In the books, as Brandy quoted above, Sam ponders whether or not a Southron was truly evil at heart (this line was given to Faramir in the Extended Edition of TTT).

One of the things about this is that we don't see their point of view. Why do they do what they do? It's similar to the Nazis in WWII. They weren't all evil, but when you think of what they're doing, you think of course they are! There were some that didn't believe in Hitler's ideals, but had to do it just because Germany was their country. Is it for honor and nobility, or are you just evil at heart?

But when you're fighting a war, things have a singular focus. You are good, the enemy is bad and it's all black and white. With that in mind, we see the story from a particular point of view. In this story, there are obviously white characters that are evil (Saruman, Wormtongue, Gollum, the book's own evil hobbit Ted Sandyman, even Saruon himself was probably white) but because the story is never told through the enemy's eyes, we never really know whether or not they were evil to the core or just some men forced to fight and hoping just to get home to their wife and kids.

[Rizor]

Originally posted by Brock Landers
Wow. I've NEVER heard that before. Quite interesting :) I read it in Humphrey Carpenter's terrific biography of Tolkien. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618057021/qid=1072491346/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-1258546-3110339?v=glance&s=books) Very informative. And just like in LOTR, the back has a nice timeline of his life and a family tree. :)

It has some great stuff like how Tolkien's earlier experiences with spiders led to the creation of Shelob and how the Farmer Maggot episode was based on real incidents.

[Brock Landers]

All I have is Carpenter's THE LETTERS OF JRR TOLKIEN, it's a good deal of Tolkien's personal letters to publishers, faithful readers and his sons.

It's great.

[drjones]

Originally posted by JBomb87
Their are no such thing as someone being purly white. They're descendents of British, Italian, Irish, German, etc liniage. They do show pride of their culture. But they're not considered racists. So thats an unethical statement you just made.

Sure, I'm just as much Irish as Micheal Jordan is African. His family has probably been in America longer than mine (I think it was my great grandfather who moved over). To say that Irish-Fests and Oktoberfests make up for Febuary being "African-American History month" is bull****. There were different tribes in Africa just as there were different countries in Europe.

What if I put in a petition to Congress saying that I no longer wish to be "caucasian?" I now want to be a "European-American." I don't want to be "Irish-American," cause that's too specific. After all, there are no "Zulu-Americans," only "African-Americans." I'll also include in the petition a mention of "Europen-American History month."

Does this sound retarded to anyone? I certainly hope it does!

I'm also a little bit Polish too (yeah, I'm your average American mutt). What would you say if I wanted to sue J.K. Rowling for her mention of Eastern-European schools? For those who don't know, their Headmaster turned out to be a foolish bad guy.

Again, I hope this sounds ridiculous.

Tolkien did not write the stories with any hidden meaning. If you want a book to analyze, read "The Lord of the Flies" (no relation to LOTR). If you find any symbolic meanings in LOTR (whether obvious or subtle), those meanings are not intended by the author. Hell, why don't you just look for symbolism in "Green Eggs and Ham?" Dr. Suess wrote just as much symbolism into that book as Tolkien wrote into LOTR.

[QUINNtheESKIMO]

There are a lot of things I could say in response to your post, mr. jones; but this thread is about the possible prejudices of Tolkien, not your own.

[Izzy]

Originally posted by DangerMouse
Last time I checked, there weren't any "dark skinned" characters in Greek, Norse, or Russian mythology.

Last time I checked, there weren't very many "dark skinned" people in WWI. So I suppose that was a racist war.

But the real question is this: Is it true racism that you're finding, or is it racism you're creating?

The Lord of the Rings, as a 3 part novel, is NOT racist, unless you want to create it from nothing.

1. The absence of dark skinned people doesn't hint at racism, its the fact that dark skin and the color black are being used as representation of evil is.

2. Using it as representation isn't nothing, its something. But no one's saying Tokien was trying to show the world he was racist, we're saying he could've put racism into the story, and hinted at it.

3. And you're assuming we're creating this racism on a subconcious level, and every subconcious mind is different, so your assumptions could be very inaccurate.

Last time I checked, there weren't any "dark skinned" characters in Greek, Norse, or Russian mythology.

4. It's mythology, did you ever stop and think that dark skinned people weren't in those regions during the writing of these mythologies? LOTR was written within the last century when the different ethnicities were well known. Greeks once thought that people around the world had faces on their chests, they're not going to be racist to people they don't even know exist.

So don't go making assumptions on our minds when you're just not opening your eyes.

[Izzy]

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was very shocked that the only people in the world capable of being corrupted by Sauramon were people of color.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Wild Men (who attack the villages at the beginning of TTT) are white.

I think he was talking about Sauron, Saruman only corrupted stupid people and orcs. Sauron however, he corrupted The haradrim (resembled very much Indians), and mutated elves, orcs. The only white skinned people that Sauron and Saruman corrupted were stupid, or barbaric, insinuating they were weak at mind, also saying in effect that the other people corrupted (haradrim) were weak at mind to be corrupted by Sauron.

[Izzy]

Sauron wasn't a man, he was created in Utumno by Melkor who was the evil (immortal) son of The Valar.

[Izzy]

Originally posted by drjones
Sure, I'm just as much Irish as Micheal Jordan is African. His family has probably been in America longer than mine (I think it was my great grandfather who moved over). To say that Irish-Fests and Oktoberfests make up for Febuary being "African-American History month" is bull****. There were different tribes in Africa just as there were different countries in Europe.

What if I put in a petition to Congress saying that I no longer wish to be "caucasian?" I now want to be a "European-American." I don't want to be "Irish-American," cause that's too specific. After all, there are no "Zulu-Americans," only "African-Americans." I'll also include in the petition a mention of "Europen-American History month."


What the hell does this have to do with prejudices in LOTR? Nothing. So don't post this crap.

Originally posted by drjones
I'm also a little bit Polish too (yeah, I'm your average American mutt). What would you say if I wanted to sue J.K. Rowling for her mention of Eastern-European schools? For those who don't know, their Headmaster turned out to be a foolish bad guy.

Again, I hope this sounds ridiculous.


Believe me, it does.
I'm sure people agree with you, but once again this has nothing to do with the thread. Plus, he's just one character, he can't represent all the people of his ethnicity. LOTR however, has mostly all the bad guys portrayed as dark skin and dark eyes. No one's talking about suing anyone. Dumbass.

Originally posted by drjones
Tolkien did not write the stories with any hidden meaning. If you want a book to analyze, read "The Lord of the Flies" (no relation to LOTR). If you find any symbolic meanings in LOTR (whether obvious or subtle), those meanings are not intended by the author. Hell, why don't you just look for symbolism in "Green Eggs and Ham?" Dr. Suess wrote just as much symbolism into that book as Tolkien wrote into LOTR.

Why don't we analyze other books? because we're talking about this. People can discuss those books elsewhere, We're not "searching" for racism otherwise we'd be saying how a whole bunch of other crap is racist. Well J.R.R. tokien had symbolism of christian faith (as said on an online article and on a christian radio) but you can't just say it isn't racist because it has to do with christianity, that's like saying a priest can't be racist because he has to do with christianity. So actually, there isn't as much symbolism in Green Eggs and Ham as there is in LOTR. So think before you say these completely moronic things.

[drjones]

What's your problem Izzy? This thread is about racism in middle earth. Maybe you're too stupid to have noticed, but it started to lead into a discussion of of racism of each one of US. By the way, I am not racist. If you'll reread my post, you'll see that the point I was trying to get at is that no one deserves either discrimination OR special attention simply because of their skin color.

But If that's too off topic, I'll conclude with something that is on topic. Where did you find that article about Tolkien saying that there was symbolism in his stories? I'd be really interested in reading that; especially since everything else I've read/heard says that he wrote them as stories that were not supposed to be analyzed.

[PsYkOoOoO]

i think izzy's in a mood swing..

[mentiroso]

Originally posted by deo
"villains are mostly described as being "a dark skinned, dark eyes, dark haired race".

MC Search from 3rd Bass said it best -

"Black cats are bad luck, bad guys wear black. musta been a white guy that started all that"

Not that I think that JR Tolkein was racist or that the movies were. Personally I have never met a black elf, or hobbit. I have met a black dwarf though but then again there is only one dwarf in the movie.
Then again there were no black humans in the movie. Maybe they were smart and got the hell away from Suaron and let whitey stay to take care of that crap while they went on vacation?

Who knows?

[Dracula]

Originally posted by Izzy
1. The absence of dark skinned people doesn't hint at racism, its the fact that dark skin and the color black are being used as representation of evil is.


the key bit of logic missing in this whole argument is that the Orcs and Uruk-hai aren't "People" they're monsters. If afro-American actors were used as bad guys then you might have a point, but no they're dudes in latex makeup who look like this

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0167261/lotr2_2-80496.jpg
.CRAP, well do you really need a photo?


but I guess your right J.R.R and Peter Jackson are KKK members spreading propaganda and they should be stoped, then we can shut down that minstril show "Star Trek" for those racist Klingons

[mentiroso]

Originally posted by Dracula
then we can shut down that minstril show "Star Trek" for those racist Klingons


Those klingons are racist. I am glad I am not the only one who noticed this. They are always running around yelling "kill whitey" and chasing me around the neighborhood reciting Klingon proverbs I can not understand.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by QUINNtheESKIMO
I was very shocked that the only people in the world capable of being corrupted by Sauramon were people of color. That entire armies and nations, from the EAST, where people are not WHITE, were the only armies and nations who would be persuaded or WILLING to take sauromon's side. That's not true. Saruman used Dunlanders, who were clearly "white." They were the ones who engaged in the initial attack against Rohan.

[Rizor]

Originally posted by Dracula
the key bit of logic missing in this whole argument is that the Orcs and Uruk-hai aren't "People" they're monsters. If afro-American actors were used as bad guys then you might have a point, but no they're dudes in latex makeup who look like this I'm not supporting the idea that the books are racist, but it's not isolated to Orcs and Uruks, the argument is mostly about the fact that the human forces that have sided with the enemy like the Haradrim (the soldiers with the Oliphants) that are described as dark skinned in the books.

[Doomsday]

I can't believe people can be this sensitive, or should I say OVER-sensitive.

If you people actually believe in racism in LOTR, then I guess Star Wars is racist because Darth Vader was black, and nobody likes anything black, do they? :rolleyes:

[IceGambit]

Originally posted by Izzy
Do you see any black people forming groups like KKK?

Yes. Quite frequently.

I think the solution to this whole argument lies in the words of Tolkien himself: "I cordially dislike allegory."

That statement means that, as people have said, LOTR was not intended as a allegory, so there is no underlying racism anymore than there is underlying support of a movement against wearing shoes. If you have truly studied Tolkien and his works (which I haven't), I am sure you could give more specific information on this topic.

I figure the only reason the Haradrim were described as dark-skinned is because they live closer to Arda's equator than the men of the regions in Middle-Earth. Does that not make sense?

[Queen Arwen]

Originally posted by Izzy
Sauron wasn't a man, he was created in Utumno by Melkor who was the evil (immortal) son of The Valar.

Melkor was not the evil immortal son of The Valar. He was of the Valar, the brother of Manwe, until he betrayed them because he was desirous of greater power. From The Silmarillion: "Manwe and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Iluvatar." Also from The Silmarillion: "The Lords of the Valar are seven; and the Valier, the Queens of the Valar, are seven also. The names of the Valar are in due order: Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Orome, Mandos, Lorien, and Tulkas; and the names of the Queens are: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Este, Vaire, Vana, and Nessa. Melkor is no longer counted among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth." Melkor was renamed Morgoth after his betrayal of the Valar.

And Sauron was NOT created by Melkor. He was a rebellious Maia, guardian spirits created by the Valar.

[LegolasIsntSexy]

cant anything be free of nitpicking?

[PsYkOoOoO]

Originally posted by Doomsday
I can't believe people can be this sensitive, or should I say OVER-sensitive.

If you people actually believe in racism in LOTR, then I guess Star Wars is racist because Darth Vader was black, and nobody likes anything black, do they? :rolleyes:


hahaa..i guess its because he wore a BLACK suit instead of having a dark skin..in fact i think he's skin was purple when he luke took off his helmet...

[Queen Arwen]

Originally posted by LegolasIsntSexy
cant anything be free of nitpicking?

I hope this is targeted towards the author of this thread? And I agree. I always get a little peeved when somebody says LOTR is racist because of the all-white cast and whatnot. Tolkien was trying to write a mythology for Britain! Does the word Anglo-Saxon mean anything to you people?

[PsYkOoOoO]

why dont those people who thinks that LOTR is racist go watch movies like spawn or blade..they might get their satisfaction from there...

[Queen Arwen]

It's annoying, especially when they say all these things about the LOTR films and yet know nothing of Tolkien.

[PsYkOoOoO]

if i remember correctly i dont remember seeing any dark skinned vampires in blade...all white people..hmmmmm...i might be wrong...

[Queen Arwen]

Never a Blade fan. Actually, not much of a horror fan. Period. Couldn't say. But the point exists that there are many movies out there that could have racial overtones if taken that way! Anything can have a racial overtone if the "analysis" is overreaching!

[PsYkOoOoO]

like deo...the creator of this thread...

[Queen Arwen]

I've got to admit though, it was pretty gutsy of him to start a thread he knows people are going to bash! Ballsy guy, if you'll pardon the expression.

[PsYkOoOoO]

hhhaaa...Ballsy guy....hahahaha

[Queen Arwen]

Cheap shot on my part.

[Optimus Magnus]

Oh Jesus, is nothing safe and sacred anymore. Must you Politically Correct campaigners find fault with everything; you're really starting to piss me off

Look at the "white/black" thing like this: night and day

At night, we usually think of scary and dangerous things, while in day we feel safe and empowered.

So in effect, Tolkien is not being racist, he is saying that this is a battle of night and day, two infinately opposing forces that will contiue to oppose one another until the cold death of the Universe and beyond.

And on a side note, what colour would you prefer to represent the forces of evil: purple with pink spots?

Wake up to reality, deo, you dip****.

And the point of the mythology thing is very correct: in medieval England, there was not a black man in sight, not until they colonised out near America did the slaves roll in

[neo2747]

It has nothing to do with racism. All it stands for is good and evil. Darker creatures being dark as they have been corrupted and lighter creatures are light because they havent been corrupted. Take Frodo for example. When he set out for Rivendell he was as white as a sheet but when he got to mount doom, he was corrupted by the ring thus looking darker.

[deo]

Originally posted by Queen Arwen
Never a Blade fan. Actually, not much of a horror fan. Period. Couldn't say. But the point exists that there are many movies out there that could have racial overtones if taken that way! Anything can have a racial overtone if the "analysis" is overreaching!

possibly. but I didn't start this thread to be politically correct. my signature alone should sagest that I am not politically correct. I started this thread to have a logical debate among adults about the subject matter expressed in Tolkien's books, but some people are incapable of doing so without resorting to childish and ignorant slurs and statements. Yes, I knew that most of you would disagree with me, but I did not know that this thread would go so far off course that most of you would start repeating yourselves. I never thought that the movies where racist, and I couldn't care less about the cast, but I did think the books where racially motivated. I read the books, and that is what I got from them. I am entitled to my opinion, and you are entitled to disagree with me. that is what makes America great.

[redman]

Originally posted by deo
I am entitled to my opinion, and you are entitled to disagree with me. that is what makes America great.

whats this got to do with america?

[deo]

Originally posted by redman
whats this got to do with america?

ever heard of the first amendment?

[Dracula]

Yes, I agree with you and we should shut down the Alien movies too because the killer aliens are black.

[PsYkOoOoO]

hahahaa...and DRACULA(refer to nic)wears black all the time as well...

[Doomsday]

OK I think it's about time this thread were closed.

[QUINNtheESKIMO]

The point of the thread was to question whether or not you think it was racist that the the only civilized(not counting the wild men) people who as a nation decided to fight with the bad guys are from India. Obviously Rohan, Gondor, and and Rivendel(the civilised white guys) can resist Sauron, but the dark skinned people of Haradin can't.

[Queen Arwen]

Not true, Quinn. Ever heard of the Black Numenoreans? They were of the same blood and people as Aragorn and his kin, but they succumbed to the power of Sauron all the same because of their own lust for power. The Mouth of Sauron was a Black Numenorean. Again, ANYBODY is susceptible to Sauron's corrupting powers in Middle-earth.

[Cbars]

Originally posted by Doomsday
OK I think it's about time this thread were closed.

WAY past time. This has gone to the point of absurdity.

[Queen Arwen]

Hey, I'm just waiting. :)

[Cloud Buster]

I like the fact that everytime someone starts a fight they try to end it by saying "all I was trying to do was have a rational conversation as an adult....etc, etc"

[Cbars]

Originally posted by Cloud Buster
I like the fact that everytime someone starts a fight they try to end it by saying "all I was trying to do was have a rational conversation as an adult....etc, etc"

Especially when they choose a topic that is sure to start one.

[KenM]

There is racism in the LotR movies. They cut the dwarf's big fight scene, but they leave in the elf's big fight scene. Dwarven discrimnation, I tell you. ;)

[PsYkOoOoO]

hahahaa...

[zamphir66]

Yes, I hadn't thought about that. Deo has made this a black/white homo sapiens issue, when in fact there are a plethora(that means a lot) more than two 'races' in Middle Earth. And there are indeed undertones of racism,say between elves and dwarves, or men and elves, but the narrator inevitably suggests that this is a bad thing. That said, I would have to say that LOTR is in fact ANTI-RACIST.

Thank you, Deo. You've made me think about this novel in a way i never had before, and to appreciate it more.

Just in case you want to continue to apply LOTR to this world, take some advice from an english major, namely myself. It is very dangerous to take elements from a text and extrapolate them to the author or the world around the author. When examining literature, it is best to remove the author from the picture all together. Texts are self-contained, and you really can't approach them biographically as you are doing unless you've done years of research on the author and have lots of proof. For example:

It would be alright to say "There is racism in Middle Earth." You can use the text at hand to support or deny an argument like this.

It would be presumptuous to say "There is racism in M.E, and therefore Tolkien was racist."

I feel it is necessary to add some more. I believe some one has already mentioned that Tolkien "disliked allegory," or the term allegory really. This is true of any self-respecting English type. People have always said the Chronicles of Narnia were simply allegories of Biblical stories for children, and Lewis hated that to his dying day. He saw Narnia as a self-contained world where God and miracles and good and evil played out much like they have in our world. To just call it an allegory kind of destroys the magic. I'm not sure if I'm making any sense. Ideas are REAL, and when we share ideas, like our idea of Middle Earth, it is much more than just a tale for amusement. It has a life of it's own, and it is timeless. Tolkien didn't WRITE about Middle Earth, he DISCOVERED it. Sooner or later someone had to stumble upon it.

I am so tired, I have to go to sleep now. I await your response on the morrow.