I dont get something

[Gandollum]

Okay im watching Towers, and something doesnt seem right. Its Sauron thinking that Pippin has the ring. I dont get this, in Towers, the Nazgul at the end know that Frodo has the ring, so Sauron would eventually send a force there. But whats the point of PJ adding it, it totally undermines the Pippin-Palantir scene. And now Sauron thinks Pippin has the ring, wouldnt he know hes at Edoras. :confused: And if anyone says the vision stuff, it isnt true, remember at Weathertop, the Nazgul could clearly sense the ring even before Frodo put the ring on. I dont know, I think PJ screwed this part up. Sorry if this is a bit confusing, but this whole sub-plot is confusing me too.

[DolAmroth]

Maybe Sauron got confused cause I got confused just reading your paragraph.

[Gandollum]

Originally posted by DolAmroth
Maybe Sauron got confused cause I got confused just reading your paragraph.

Lol, yeah, i cant really explain it, I might need to see it again. Maybe i missed something. if Sauron thinks Frodo has the ring, wouldnt he get confused that another hobbit at Edoras also has the ring. Not only that but hes 1000 miles away from Osgiliath. What Im trying to say however, is why did PJ even put that part, about Pippin having the ring, it totally undermines the Osgiliath-Frodo scene.

[Izzy]

The nazgul can only sense the ring, they didn't really see frodo. Sauron could find a resemblance between Frodo and Pip, and mix the faces up. They're both hobbits. And Sauron might not have known that Pip was seeing him through the palantir, and made an assumption that the ringbearer had put on the ring.

[DolAmroth]

That sounds about right.

[tiff_t_t]

No, no. I get what you're asking, and you're right... it doesn't really work. I hadn't thought it through before you asked. But yes, it does seriously decrease the dramatic tension surrounding Pippin as the fake Ringbearer. Timeline too is all messed up... Sauron would have already been massing forces to head for the ring in Gondor when he would have seen Pip in Edoras, but then Pip and Gandy have to run to Gondor? Whhaaa? Yeah, so, I agree... it's confusing for us AND Sauron.

[Gandollum]

Originally posted by Izzy
The nazgul can only sense the ring, they didn't really see frodo. Sauron could find a resemblance between Frodo and Pip, and mix the faces up. They're both hobbits. And Sauron might not have known that Pip was seeing him through the palantir, and made an assumption that the ringbearer had put on the ring.

I understand, but I think the Osgiliath scene undermines everything, it doesnt make much sense, and should have been left out.

[Gandollum]

I think the whole trilogy could have been perfect without any real plot holes if they didnt add that one scene in, it looked really cool, but made it really confusing. Hopefully they talk about this part in the ROTK commentary.

[Brock Landers]

Lemme try to explain it:

Frodo was at Osgiliath, which is not far from Minas Tirith. In the book, Denethor has a Palantir and was caught in Sauron's snare. Sauron probably guessed that the Halfling, 'Baggins' to him, looked in to the Palantir of the Citadel in Minas Tirith. Sauron couldn't really tell Pippin was in Edoras, I guess we can't assume that Pippin told him that he was there. Hence why it was so important that "you didn't tell Sauron about Frodo and Sam." Sauron must have assumed that this was the same one in GONDOR. Osgiliath and Minas Tirith aren't too far away.

Get it?

[Gandollum]

But the Palantir would be Sarumans, and dont the Nazgul come there anyway at the books. I remember that they fly over Gandalf and Pip while they're riding to MT. Wouldnt Sauron know there close to Isengard and Edoras. I guess this explanation would work only in the books, maybe not the movies.

[Brock Landers]

Originally posted by Gandollum
But the Palantir would be Sarumans

Doesn't Denethor also have one of his own, seperate from Saruman's? He had it in the books, when he was on the Pyre.

[Gandollum]

Also, I dont really know if Sauron could distinguish each Palantir, Does anyone know.

[Izzy]

The nazgul sensed the ring, but didn't exactly see who had it. When Sauron saw Pip in the paltir, he would've sent forces to Rohan, but all the forces were going to gondor. He would worry about the ring later, because he thought the ring was in edoras. And edoras wouldn't have been his biggest threat, Gondor would. He assumed that if they wanted to get the ring to Mordor, then they'd have to get through the forces of mordor, so he didn't have to worry much. And the last time before the palantir Sauron saw the halfling (didn't know his name) Frodo, and then assumed he could've gone to Edoras. But the nazgul wouldn't tell sauron that they almost caught someone who may have had the ring in osgiliath. And even if the nazgul told sauron about Frodo, Sauron might wonder why the ring would be around so many of his servants, and passed that idea off.

[Gandollum]

Originally posted by Brock Landers
Doesn't Denethor also have one of his own, seperate from Saruman's? He had it in the books, when he was on the Pyre.

Actually, Im talking about the one that Pippin looks into, which is Saruman's. Im guessing he would know that its Sarumans. Its like a phone or something. I remember in the books that when Aragorns looks into it, Sauron was surprised that it was him and not Saruman, I cant remember though, I need to read that part of the book again.

Edit- Yes he does, Denethor does have one, but its not in the theatrical.

[Brock Landers]

But then maybe.....ahh what the hell. I don't know. I'm stumped.

[Gandollum]

Originally posted by Izzy
The nazgul sensed the ring, but didn't exactly see who had it. When Sauron saw Pip in the paltir, he would've sent forces to Rohan, but all the forces were going to gondor. He would worry about the ring later, because he thought the ring was in edoras. And edoras wouldn't have been his biggest threat, Gondor would. He assumed that if they wanted to get the ring to Mordor, then they'd have to get through the forces of mordor, so he didn't have to worry much. And the last time before the palantir Sauron saw the halfling (didn't know his name) Frodo, and then assumed he could've gone to Edoras. But the nazgul wouldn't tell sauron that they almost caught someone who may have had the ring in osgiliath. And even if the nazgul told sauron about Frodo, Sauron might wonder why the ring would be around so many of his servants, and passed that idea off.

They already know someone who is a Hobbit, has the ring at Osgiliath, but what I dont understand is why does Sauron think that Pippin has the ring, who is a 1000 miles away from Gondor. And I understand what you're saying, I think you could be right, but Jackson clearly could have made this part more clearer.

[Gandollum]

Originally posted by Brock Landers
But then maybe.....ahh what the hell. I don't know. I'm stumped.

Lol, me too, Ill just wait for PJ's commentary.

[PsYkOoOoO]

Originally posted by Gandollum
Okay im watching Towers, and something doesnt seem right. Its Sauron thinking that Pippin has the ring. I dont get this, in Towers, the Nazgul at the end know that Frodo has the ring, so Sauron would eventually send a force there. But whats the point of PJ adding it, it totally undermines the Pippin-Palantir scene. And now Sauron thinks Pippin has the ring, wouldnt he know hes at Edoras. :confused: And if anyone says the vision stuff, it isnt true, remember at Weathertop, the Nazgul could clearly sense the ring even before Frodo put the ring on. I dont know, I think PJ screwed this part up. Sorry if this is a bit confusing, but this whole sub-plot is confusing me too.

okok...its really hard to understand what u are asking..but i will try to explain...first of all...sauron knows that a hobbit has the ring..but he's not sure who..like saruman...both of them didnt know there were 4 hobbits..they know that one hobbit has the ring..so in fotr saruman sends out his uruks to hunt down the hobbits..but to their surprise they saw 2 instead of 1 which they expect..(2 because sam and frodo ran away and wasnt seen by the uruks at all..)so naturally if u dont know how the ringbearer looks like..the first hobbit that comes within yr sight must be the ringbearer..so they took merry and pippin..and as for the nazgul at the end of ttt...well if we think of things like that:
when frodo puts on the ring he goes into the wraith world..everything is blurred and stuff..lets assume that the nazgul sees the world the same way as frodo with the ring on..gandalf explained that they SENSE the ring...and instead of looking for it they smell for it..so all they see is the ring on someone's fingers..they cant see the person's facial features and stuff...basically all they see is this human figure with the ring on..then sauron sees pippin...a hobbit in the palantir..of course he will think that he has the ring..since the nazgul didnt really see frodo..

[Spy-Of-Saruman]

^ Explained better than anyone

[Gandollum]

Originally posted by PsYkOoOoO
okok...its really hard to understand what u are asking..but i will try to explain...first of all...sauron knows that a hobbit has the ring..but he's not sure who..like saruman...both of them didnt know there were 4 hobbits..they know that one hobbit has the ring..so in fotr saruman sends out his uruks to hunt down the hobbits..but to their surprise they saw 2 instead of 1 which they expect..(2 because sam and frodo ran away and wasnt seen by the uruks at all..)so naturally if u dont know how the ringbearer looks like..the first hobbit that comes within yr sight must be the ringbearer..so they took merry and pippin..and as for the nazgul at the end of ttt...well if we think of things like that:
when frodo puts on the ring he goes into the wraith world..everything is blurred and stuff..lets assume that the nazgul sees the world the same way as frodo with the ring on..gandalf explained that they SENSE the ring...and instead of looking for it they smell for it..so all they see is the ring on someone's fingers..they cant see the person's facial features and stuff...basically all they see is this human figure with the ring on..then sauron sees pippin...a hobbit in the palantir..of course he will think that he has the ring..since the nazgul didnt really see frodo..

I see where you're coming from, but you still didnt answer the question. Im wondering why Pippin is the ringbearer even though there was a hobbit, Frodo, who had the ring at Osgiliath. Clearly the Nazgul can sense the ring, and the ring was right in front of their faces at Osgiliath. Remember at Wethertop, Frodo takes the ring out, and the Witchking can clearly sense it, why didnt he do this at Osgiliath. Shouldnt he know the ring is in Gondor, whats the point of having the Pippin ring sub plot. And also remember what Faramir says, he hasnt seen the Hobbits, Frodo and Sam in 2 days. It must have taken Gandalf and Pippin 2 days to get to MT. Plus Pippin was all the ways at Edoras when he touches the Palantir, how can he make it to MT in that amount of time, how could both Hobbits have the ring even when they're at different places. All im saying is that either the Osgiliath scene or the Pippin scene contradicts eath other. I dont really care anymore, I dont even know why im being so picky, hopefully it gets explained it in the EE. Oh did anyone catch that scene when Aragorn touched the Palantir after he took it from Pip, im sensing they will put the Aragorn-Sauron Palantir scene in the ee.

[PsYkOoOoO]

am i the only one who doesnt exactly understand the question?

[PsYkOoOoO]

hmm..maybe sauron didnt know that pippin's in edoras??you see..merry and pippin was caught by saruman in fotr..and words mustve reached sauron that they were caught by him..so he wldve expected an answer from saruman...maybe he didnt know that isengard was destroyed by the ents..after all its a sudden assult...anywayz..what im saying is...since sauron didnt know abt saruman's defeat..he will think that the hobbits are still under saruman's keeping..and therefore the when sauron looked at the palantir thru saruman's palantir he sees pippin...and he wld expect the palantir to be at isengard instead of anywhere else..maybe he didnt know that he's in edoras?

[zamphir66]

I think I understand what's being asked, and yes it is a good question. In the books, and in FOTR (Weathertop), the Nine are described as being able to 'sense' the ring if it is nearby. why then in osgiliath do the Riders not 'sense' that the Ring is right in front of them? Plus, Frodo's wound, I think, constitutes a kind of bond between Frodo and the Witch-king. Maybe I'm wrong on that point, i dunno.

[Lurtz_2000]

saruman knows there are more than 1 hobbit.
"ONE OF THE HALFLINGS carries something of great importance"

[PsYkOoOoO]

Originally posted by zamphir66
I think I understand what's being asked, and yes it is a good question. In the books, and in FOTR (Weathertop), the Nine are described as being able to 'sense' the ring if it is nearby. why then in osgiliath do the Riders not 'sense' that the Ring is right in front of them? Plus, Frodo's wound, I think, constitutes a kind of bond between Frodo and the Witch-king. Maybe I'm wrong on that point, i dunno.

well i think he sensed it..why do you think he tried to grab frodo?

and lurtz...he knows there's more than one...but dont know which one has it..

[Lurtz_2000]

i just posted late

[jeti]

I think PsYkOoOoO is correct. From what I remember from the book, Sauron does indeed receive word that Saruman has taken two hobbits captive. I suppose he gets this information from some of his orcs who team up with the uruks. He does not know more than this, though. Later, he sees Pippin in the palantir and I am pretty sure the book tells us that Sauron imagines Pippin is forced to look into it by Saruman - to torment him. If I am not mistaken, Sauron sends one of his Nazgul to Isengard to get the hobbit (and the ring) and this Nazgul actually pass overhead of the team with Gandalf and Pippin. This tells Gandalf that Pippin is in danger, which is why he takes him to Minas Tirith. The Nazgul obviously finds Isengard defeated and return this news to Sauron, who is also confronted with the return of Aragorn shortly after when he looks in the palantir. This is why he speeds up his assault on Gondor.

I agree that the display of the one ring in Osgiliath sort of muddles this plot somewhat. This Nazgul (are we sure it was the witch king?) should have sensed its presence and ought to have somehow reported it. The important thing is, I think, that Sauron is getting conflicting and troubling news. Also, the thought that they seek to destroy the ring has reportedly not even entered "their darkest dreams".