Surface and underlying messages in LOTR (help!)

[LOTRfan]

Ok, I'm doing an assignment in religion in which I have to evaluate three of my favorite sources of media and of course I picked LOTR for the favorite movie. Can anyone come up with one main surface and some main underlying messages I can talk about? Any input would be greatly appreciated. This is all I came up with so far on my three hours of sleep (don't read until you are done thinking yourself cuz it sucks and I don't want anyone to base it around mine)surface- doing what's right is difficult, and can be dangerous. underlying- one should fight for what is good and just at all costs and never give up...and even seemingly insignificant people or things can have a great impact on their world (i.e. the ring- circle of metal; Frodo- a mere hobbit)

[LegolasIsntSexy]

well thats all nice and dandy, and correct in my opinion, but what does it have to do with religion? or do you just have to evaluate it, for the sake of evalutating it? with no real connection to religion or anything...but yea what you said seems right anyhow.

[LOTRfan]

for religion class we have to evaluate different mediums and answer questions like: what is the surface message, is exposure to it making me a better person, how is this medium trying to influence me, is there anything that does, or should, bother me here...things like that. We're discussing the desensitization of conscience and how media contributes. So it's not a "religious" connection in a traditional sense.

[PsYkOoOoO]

i dont see the religion connection

[LOTRfan]

ahhh...it's not a religious debate in any way...it's just an assignment in religion class. Ever hear of forming your conscience? That's what it has to do with.

[Frodo Baggins]

there's lots of religious connections in LotR, expecially considering J.R.R. Tolkien was a Catholic; so your very wise in picking it for a topic, but what religion are you dealing with here? lol Cause 'religion class' is pretty broad...I'm personally Catholic, so I'll try and help ya out, don't know what you're looking for though.. here's some ideas:
1. Everyone/thing has a purpose and a place; if you look over at all the characters in LotR, you'll find that all of them have a significant role to play.
2. Vengeance is useless and mercy is rewarded
3. Evil cannot be used as a devise to bring up a 'good end'
4. Of course there's the whole 'not giving up hope' idea

and, there's a lot more, i just can't think of any right now, good luck on your assignment!

[PsYkOoOoO]

mercy is rewarded?im not sure bout that...remember frodo giving mercy to Gollum?and then instead of being rewarded by the road to mount doom he was rewarded with Shelob...

[Oj]

Tolkien was not a fan of symbols and underlying messages... He didn't intentionally add anything like that to LotR. Of course, bits and pieces of his personality slipped in, but no symbols were deliberately placed.

"I dislike Allegory - the conscious and intentional allegory - yet any attempt to explain the purport of myth or fairytale must use allegorical language." - from a letter by Tolkien to Milton Waldman

[The Moose]

that pretty much hit the nail on the head LOTRfan

[Partyman343]

there is a lot of symbolism in LOTR - for example, the ring symbolizes temptation - and Frodo's struggle with temptation - Sauron obviously then is the tempter, and that temptation is a part of him, w/o the ring he cannot survive (just like w/o temptation or deception, the devil doesn't have a leg to stand on). The fellowship aspect goes into the idea that you cannot get by on your own - you need help - in the story, Frodo wouldn't have made it w/o Sam, and the rest of the fellowship worked together as well. The orcs are fallen elves just like demons are fallen angels. That could give you a little to work with anyway.

[LOTRfan]

this convo. is very good and all but this isn't about religious symbols (there are other threads about that)...it's just the messages LOTR is sending. Example: the American Idol T.V. show's surface message is that the best singer/idol can become famous through our votes (thus, it's a good thing). The underlying message is that we should be more like these contestants in some way because they are our idols. 2nd example: A magazine article gives you advice on how to lose weight. Surface- mag. is trying to help you by making you healthier. Underlying- you should be or want to be skinny. Are those more clear?

[Cbars]

The main message to me is self sacrifice. Most of the major characters make some kind of sacrifice with the intention of helping Middle Earth. Frodo more or less sacrifices his life in that he was never again the same, Sam sacrificed for Frodo to get him there, ETC....There are tons of examples of this throughout the books and the movies as well.

[LOTRfan]

Thanks...but would you consider that to be surface or underlying? To me it's surface but I think to people who weren't so obsessed, didn't analyze it, and weren't as familiar with it would consider it underlying. What do you think?

[Valandil]

Try this site since you are using the movie as a source:

Angels and Elves (http://www.angelsandelves.com/)

It has a guide containing religious insights for every scene in the two movies. Later this month (might not be of help to you now) they will have their character section back up, and I also would recommend the essays under the additional link. Hope this helps! :)

[LOTRfan]

That would have really helped me with my term paper but it doesn't really fit for this assignment...thank you though!

[Cbars]

I'm not sure which you would consider it. I think you could swing it either way. Like with Faramir letting Frodo go, knowing he will prob be put to death because of the laws. I don't know, just depends on how you were to tackle it.

[jeti]

One of the things I like about this story is that, in my mind, it demonstrates that evil is not something you just are - it is something you become. And vice versa, which is why mercy and pity plays such a big role. The potential for both good and evil is in everyone, which I think is a very good point. Even Gandalf feared corruption from the ring. And is Gollum really evil, or just the victim of a tragic chain of events? And can orcs really be blamed? ("They were elves once ... broken and mutilated").

It is mentioned in the Appendixes to FOTR EE, that when someone tries to hand over the ring "it suddenly feels heavy". The commentator argues that this could mean two things. Either the ring itself does not want to be handed over, or maybe the owner himself is reluctant to. So he concludes that it is impossible for the reader to ascertain whether evil is an outside effect or if it comes from within.

Another example is the scene with Frodo, Bilbo and the ring, and how Bilbo transforms into a hideous creature (something similar happens between Frodo and Sam later). Without having the book handy, I am quite certain that the wording is ambiguous. That suddenly "Bilbo seems like a greedy little creature", or something along those lines. What I mean is, that it is open to interpretation whether Bilbo indeed transforms at all, or whether it is Frodos perception of him that transforms.

And it is funny that many consider this movie very black & white, good versus evil, and that the lines are very clearly drawn up. I disagree very much, however. It is true that everything orclike is depicted as foul and ugly, but I found it significant how the wraith-world where depicted. Suddenly the ringwraiths were the white ones, and Aragorn who jumped at them was black. By wearing the ring, Frodo seems to enter another "dimension" (and disappear from his own), or mindset if you will, in which good and evil seems to have been switched around. It serves to demonstrate how people always tend to consider themselves the "Good guys".

Well, that is what I think :rolleyes:.

[LOTRfan]

Wow....that was some awesome analysis. I agree with everything you said above, especially the last point about "the good guys." I've made this point several times on the harry potter boards about how the good side depends entirely on point of view (we were talking about if HP was written from voldemort's perspective, harry would seem like a "bad guy"). And I never noticed the symbolism of the wraiths turning white before, while aragorn remains in black. That's a great observation and fully supports your good and evil theory. Great job! :applaud:

[LOTRfan]

Originally posted by Cbars
I'm not sure which you would consider it. I think you could swing it either way. Like with Faramir letting Frodo go, knowing he will prob be put to death because of the laws. I don't know, just depends on how you were to tackle it.

I think I'll call it underlying, since it's a moral message that not everyone will immediately pick up on or is meant to. Thanks again.