Illogical change from the book?

[Kolobrod]

OK, I'm new, so be gentle.

I don't know whether this has been discussed (I have only been reading the board for a month or so), but it has bothered me a bit. We all know that there are a bunch of changes in TTT from the book. While there may be pros and cons for most of them, all but one seem to me to be fitting ok with the logic of the book. For example, the warg battle, the Elves at Helm's Deep, banishment of Eomer, hard-@$$ Faramir -- all those things do not really create any significant conflicts with any major plot lines in the book.

However, there is one moment that in my view does create such conflict. What I am talking about is the whole bit with Frodo holding out the Ring to the Nazgul in Osgiliath. This, in my opinion creates a conflict with the Pippin - Palantir storyline because if the Nazgul sees the Ring in Frodo's hands (and then probably reports back to Sauron), why then would Sauron think that Pippin has the Ring when Pippin looks in the Palantir at the Orthanc?

The only explanation that I was able to come up with for this change is that to some it may not make sense in the book that Sauron doesn't just attack Isengard thinking that Saruman has the Ring instead of attacking Gondor (To me Aragorn's looking into the Palantir is a satisfactory explanation for this). That's why they wanted to put Ring (in Sauron's mind) in Gondor instead of Isengard. But why then Merry still says to Pippin in the ROTK preview on TTT DVD "The Enemy thinks you have the Ring?"

Any thoughts?

[downflow311]

there's still alot of things we dont know yet because PJ hasnt finished TTT storyline yet.

[Partyman343]

Though you are new (as am I), you pose a terrific question. This isn't the first time I've heard it, but still I had to think long and hard about this one. I have both seen the movies and read the books, and here is the only explanation I can offer. Frodo shows the Nazgul the ring at Osgiliath. Actually this is not the first time the Nazgul have seen the ring with Frodo (remember Weathertop). Naturally, the Nazgul would report to Sauron what they found at Minas Tirith. However, they probably would not have been thorough on the names, seeing as hobbits are very little known creatures to begin with. The report would most likely have been that a halfling carries Isildur's bane - like the old poem from the books talked about. Now, Sauron also sees Pippen, "a halfling" in the Palantir, but it is probably not clear enough to show location. By the time they see another halfling or hobbit at Minas Tirith, it is Pippen this time, who has come with Gandalf. Frodo has already left Minas Tirith and has been replaced by another halfling. Since Pippen was the only halfling Sauron has seen, and he also ends up at Minas Tirith before the Nazgul return, Sauron would think that Pippen has the ring (according to both the report and what he himself saw). Remember too that shortly after Sauron saw Pippen in the palantir, Aragorn challenged him w/ the same device. This gives him more reason to believe the ring is at Minas Tirith, is being held temporarily by a hobbit, and that before long it will be used against him by a hero of the likes of Aragorn. Little does he know that another hobbit is off with the ring to destroy it (he never sees this as a possibility because of the ring's tempting qualities). I hope that explains the question to some degree. Take care!

[kylesmile]

very nice reply Partyman!

[Samwise Gamwich]

2 phrases....

November 18th the Extended Edition of TTT should fill in all the gaps

Trust PJ!!

Welcome to the boards Kolobrod!!!

[downflow311]

Originally posted by Samwise Gamwich
2 phrases....

November 18th the Extended Edition of TTT should fill in all the gaps

Trust PJ!!

Welcome to the boards Kolobrod!!!

couldnt've said it better myself!

[ddel54]

And also remember that the nazgul can not see very well but they can smell very well.....if u may remember in the fotr in the chapter a short cut to mushrooms the ringwraith was trying to smell for the ring

[ShadowsInMordor]

The movies will never be like the books, if they were it would be a two day movie. Somethings need to get cut out and skipped. Hopefully your questions will be answeres in ROTK, because PJ is an outstanding director. If they're not though, i guess that was the best they could do , or fit in about a couple hours...:confused:

[downflow311]

Originally posted by ShadowsInMordor
The movies will never be like the books, if they were it would be a two day movie. Somethings need to get cut out and skipped. Hopefully your questions will be answeres in ROTK, because PJ is an outstanding director. If they're not though, i guess that was the best they could do , or fit in about a couple hours...:confused:

or in the TTT EE

[Cbars]

Also, they had to find a way to add Frodo in more, and also to show more and more how the ring is taking him.

[downflow311]

and it adds ALOT of depth to the character of Frodo and will prove to make mt doom a more emotional scene.

[Cbars]

Isn't Frodo starting to look awful?

[downflow311]

yes, *ESPECIALLY* in that teaser poster where his neck is all torn up.

[Cbars]

Oh I know, I always think of that thing Elijah says in the teaser on the TT disk about Frodo getting to the point where he is not Frodo anymore. I can't remember the exact wording, I will have to watch it again.

[Kolobrod]

Thanks for the responses (especially Partyman). Just to clarify -- I'm not trying to punch any holes in PJ's story -- I do love the book and the movies both and agree that nobody would do a better job on these movies than PJ did. I just want to reconcile this change somehow in my mind so that I don't have to cringe during that scene (especially that cinematically it is one of my favorites in TTT). So I was hoping to hear some explanations from you guys that would help me in that regard.

[downflow311]

Originally posted by Cbars
Oh I know, I always think of that thing Elijah says in the teaser on the TT disk about Frodo getting to the point where he is not Frodo anymore. I can't remember the exact wording, I will have to watch it again.

when Frodo ceases to be Frodo anymore i beleive is what Elijah says.

[TyRoss]

One thing wrong with your theory there.

If the nazgul actually saw the ring in Frodo's hand Frodo probobly wouldn't have goten five steps away.


More than likely the Nazgul had an odd feeling about the strange little thing on the battlements but had no confirmation.

[Fanible]

It seemed like he knew Frodo had it to me. Thats why he was reaching for it... kinda in slow mo.

But maybe that creature he was riding was the reason it flew away, it got spooked. *shrugs

The theory of not specifically knowing which hobbit had it in particular is convincing enough for me. He doesn't know who they look like or what their name is.

[The Moose]

there is just some piece that is either in the EE of TTT or in ROTK that will fit it all together

[PsYkOoOoO]

well to me...i think

when frodo puts on the ring he sees the nazgul different like how we saw it in FOTR...all white and blurred and all...but we dont know how the nazgul sees the world...now if we assume that he sees the world like how frodo sees them when he puts on the ring...then when he saw frodo in osgiliath all he can see is the ring and maybe the shadow of frodo...but not his facial features in great detail...so to them all the hobbits look the same...small sized..curly hair...big feet....and maybe they just assumed that pippin has the ring...also...saruman wanted to capture frodo in FOTR therefore he sent those uruk hai to hunt them down at amon hen...however,they captured the wrong person...merry and pippin instead of frodo himself...somehow this information might have got to sauron and he might have assumed that pippin has the ring...since he doesnt know that there are more than 1 hobbit in the fellowship

[The Moose]

that's probably it PsYkOoOoO

[PsYkOoOoO]

thats how i see it

[The Moose]

that idea makkes the most sense to me, in terms of the story, from the book and in what will happen in the film

[Smeagol]

I hated that part with the Nazgul. :alien:

[PsYkOoOoO]

how come?